Why Does He Feel So Insecure?

[Dancebug]

I posted a message a while ago about almost the same problem we are dealing with. It was not completely resolved. Actually it seems to be coming back.

My partner often complains that I am so light and he cannot feel me (speaking about standard here). I think he looks for firmer handhold and some more weight from my left arm on his right. Our regular coach often told me that a lady needs to have some weight in her elbows. He told me to imagine I am carrying some weights at both of my elbows’ends throughout dance. When he wants to demonstrate something with me, the first thing he tells me is that I forgot my weights. I would say both our coach and my partner are in the same line here, except that my partner says that I am so slim and do not have much meat around my torso and without my weight on his arm he feels so insecure and his right hand slips. Putting another way, he would not have much problem with my current position, if I were bigger, because there would be something that he can latch on.

Here is a kicker, though. We take lessons from a well-known visiting coach (female) from time to time. At our first lesson with her, she asked how a man leads a lady. Her answer to her own question was it is mainly through both hands (and some through body contact). The way she demonstrated showed that a man does not need to depend on the weight from a lady’s left arm. Actually she looked somewhat light on her left arm, but not in her hand. After we took some lessons with her, my partner’s complaints about this problem has been gone as if it were not a problem for him any more. Now that we have not had any chance to take a lesson with her recently, his complaints are back. It is as if we had not had any lesson with her.

Here is the problem. My natural instinct is trying not to be heavy on his arm. It is more comfortable for me that way. I can do it the way my partner wants me to do, but I have to think about it, which takes some of my focus away from other aspects of dancing. But what I am really concerned about is the possibility that my partner’s understanding of connection and lead is wrong. If he is wrong on this, it will limit us and our improvement will be inevitably slow.

Any comments will be appreciated.

 

[ACtenDance]

Try this.... squeeze his arm between your thumb and middle finger. Squeeze tightly enough so that it's a little more pressure than you think would be comfortable for him. You'd be surprised how doing that can make you feel so much more responsive. At least it works when my partner remembers to do it.

 

[fluffy]

I also have this problem to some extent - especially when he drops his right arm and my left doesn't follow suit! I have to think of having weight in my wrist, but keeping the elbow at the right height. Another thing is he has to be holding you correctly. We got repositioned (again) recently : He needs to have the top of his wrist pretty much under my armpit, so even without my arm on his, I can feel the top of his wrist as long as I am in the right position. If his hold is too low down, I can't feel him and feel I have nothing to extend into.

We have been reposition many times by different people, but this is the one most comfortable for us. I guess it will depend on many factors including height, relative arm lengths, and flexibility in the upper spine. Ladies create their big top in different ways, even former world champions.

 

[madmaximus]

I posted a message a while ago about almost the same problem we are dealing with. It was not completely resolved. Actually it seems to be coming back.

My partner often complains that I am so light and he cannot feel me (speaking about standard here). I think he looks for firmer handhold and some more weight from my left arm on his right. Our regular coach often told me that a lady needs to have some weight in her elbows. He told me to imagine I am carrying some weights at both of my elbows’ends throughout dance. When he wants to demonstrate something with me, the first thing he tells me is that I forgot my weights. I would say both our coach and my partner are in the same line here, except that my partner says that I am so slim and do not have much meat around my torso and without my weight on his arm he feels so insecure and his right hand slips. Putting another way, he would not have much problem with my current position, if I were bigger, because there would be something that he can latch on.

Here is a kicker, though. We take lessons from a well-known visiting coach (female) from time to time. At our first lesson with her, she asked how a man leads a lady. Her answer to her own question was it is mainly through both hands (and some through body contact). The way she demonstrated showed that a man does not need to depend on the weight from a lady’s left arm. Actually she looked somewhat light on her left arm, but not in her hand. After we took some lessons with her, my partner’s complaints about this problem has been gone as if it were not a problem for him any more. Now that we have not had any chance to take a lesson with her recently, his complaints are back. It is as if we had not had any lesson with her.

Here is the problem. My natural instinct is trying not to be heavy on his arm. It is more comfortable for me that way. I can do it the way my partner wants me to do, but I have to think about it, which takes some of my focus away from other aspects of dancing. But what I am really concerned about is the possibility that my partner’s understanding of connection and lead is wrong. If he is wrong on this, it will limit us and our improvement will be inevitably slow.

Any comments will be appreciated.

Wow.



If you ever need a new partner...

While other men (and women, for that matter) prefer the security of having something to work with, there is a school of thought that espouses very little pressure contact between the partners.

I happen to be one who believes in it--because it doesn't compromise my balance and allows me to move better.
The most contact I want, is to feel the fabric of my partners dress--no more (unless we're doing a line figure--or some such figure--in which case she'll need stronger support).

Dancing "light" allows both partners the freedom of movement so necessary for good, strong expression.
Dancing "light" correctly is ALSO quite difficult, because it means that you have to dance "without support" (not so easy), dance very "accurately" (difficult), and respond to changing conditions/leads very very quickly (really difficult).


One thought though.

Consider that you might be dancing with somebody with a different style.
Thus, what he is doing might not necessarily be incorrect.
It might just be rooted in a different philosophy.




m

 

[Chris Stratton]

It's not the weight, it's the response.

If he moves, you need to move comparably. If you don't, it doesn't matter how much weight force there is or isn't. If you do, reliably, he will stop worrying about the lightness and come to appreciate it. There's a saying that "a good lady will feel like she's about to get away from you, but never will". The security will ultimate come from experience that he's not going to loose you, and hints that it's still true in the way that you respond to the tiniest changes of his shape or position.

And ideally he will be as sensitive to your position as you are to his. One possiblity that shouldn't be discounted is that he may presently be more aware of your weight position that you are of his, and that could be one of the causes of complaint.

 

[Katarzyna]

I think I understand what your partner is referring to. My firts teacher always wanted minimum weight on the man't right arm. So I got used to trying to be as light as possible. For about a year I had to listed to almost every intl coach that I was too light... He doesn't want you to be heavy (ie, heavy because your back is dropping down or your side is collapsing), but he wants to feel your weight in his arm which can be achieved by stronger hold with your left arm, as well as lowering your wrist down, and maintaining a slight pressure down... I see a lot of girls who pick up their elbows and totally loose connection with the man.. I know that happens when they feel their partner is dropping his arm/side... But by doing that, they totally disconnect from the partner. And a lot of time this can do well in syllabus where it can at least look like a frame, but when they get to a higher level, it's so easy to compare against other couples, and see that there is no functional frame in place..

I've been working on being heavier for a while... It's only recent that it started feeling right. Last 1-2 months it started feeling like we are REALLY together...

 

[fluffy]

Following from Katarzyna, "lightness" is often misinterpreted. I've been told to stop running away from my partner in say a feather step, I need to give him my body and present some light resistance so he can feel me, not get out of the way as soon as possible, but get out of the way later, and in the correct way - ie follow!

 

[Katarzyna]

Following from Katarzyna, "lightness" is often misinterpreted. I've been told to stop running away from my partner in say a feather step, I need to give him my body and present some light resistance so he can feel me, not get out of the way as soon as possible, but get out of the way later, and in the correct way - ie follow!

I feel the more light people are.. in a bad way, the less they lead and follow, and the more they just run through patterns of the routine without leading/following. I want to feel everything from my partner, I want to feel his body from the knees up to the ribcage. I want our both hands to have a very positive connection.. I want to feel his weight and I want him to feel mine.. BUT I don't want it to be forceful, I don't want him to squeeze me in any way.. i want my body to respond to every single action in his body... I want to be connected everywhere.. dance really together.. as a lot of people define a goal of dancing ballroom as 2 people dancing as one..

I want to have weight and connection everywher, but not tension.. (oh and my partner would be very quick to say when I'm heavy in a bad way)

 

[Chris Stratton]

I feel the more light people are.. in a bad way, the less they lead and follow, and the more they just run through patterns of the routine without leading/following. I want to feel everything from my partner, I want to feel his body from the knees up to the ribcage. I want our both hands to have a very positive connection.. I want to feel his weight and I want him to feel mine.. BUT I don't want it to be forceful, I don't want him to squeeze me in any way.. i want my body to respond to every single action in his body... I want to be connected everywhere.. dance really together.. as a lot of people define a goal of dancing ballroom as 2 people dancing as one..

I just want to know exactly where my partner is, and have her know exactly where I am... beyond what's needed to accomplish that with a modest reserve of security, I'd rather not get much more physical, as that soon starts to impose seemingly un-needed limitatations.

If I were to some it up in practical terms, I'd say that it helps to think of the frame as being more for listening than for talking - and that's almost equally true for both partners. Hands are for holding and feeling...

 

[Katarzyna]

I just want to know exactly where my partner is, and have her know exactly where I am... beyond what's needed to accomplish that with a modest reserve of security, I'd rather not get much more physical, as that soon starts to impose seemingly un-needed limitatations.

If I were to some it up in practical terms, I'd say that it helps to think of the frame as being more for listening than for talking - and that's almost equally true for both partners. Hands are for holding and feeling...

But the more together you are in the frame, and the more connected you are everywhere else, the less you need to do to feel each other and the response to any action can happen faster...

 

[Chris Stratton]

While many actions in dancing appear sharp, nothing actually happens without substantial preparation (excepting emergency diversions for floorcraft and near-fall mistake recovery) If you are truly together throughout the buildup, there is no need for a fast reaction, because you will not be reacting to finding yourself suddenly behind your partner, but instead evolving the movements together from their natural causes and sources.

 

[Katarzyna]

While many actions in dancing appear sharp, nothing actually happens without substantial preparation (excepting emergency diversions for floorcraft and near-fall mistake recovery) If you are truly together throughout the buildup, there is no need for a fast reaction, because you will not be reacting to finding yourself suddenly behind your partner, but instead evolving the movements together from their natural causes and sources.

I don't mean sharp as fast reaction, I mean fast adjustment to whatever your partner's body is doing at every moment... so you can constantly stay together and feel each other...

 

[Chris Stratton]

I don't mean sharp as fast reaction, I mean fast adjustment to whatever your partner's body is doing at every moment... so you can constantly stay together and feel each other...

I'd be curious what the martial arts people would say... my guess is that the advise would be to be physically loose and mentally kind of hyper-aware.

And that's what it's always seemed dance teachers wanted of me - the more aware you are, the lighter you can safely be.

 

[Katarzyna]

I'd be curious what the martial arts people would say... my guess is that the advise would be to be physically loose and mentally kind of hyper-aware.

And that's what it's always seemed dance teachers wanted of me - the more aware you are, the lighter you can safely be.

yes you need a lot of sensitivity and awareness, but one of the big problems I had from my first teacher was the fear of being heavy.. which gives you a feel of insecurity.. kind of when someone dances with you and the feel insecure, not uncomfortable, but insecure.... because there isn't enough positive energy coming through.. By weight and connection, I don't mean tension.. you should feel the weight through gravity etc... and allow to share it between partners, rather than holding everything to stay on your own balance.. I'm talking of common couple balance not individual balance..

Also, for martial arts, i would assume that besited being loose and huper aware, you need to have tone

 

[Katarzyna]

ps.. I do realize I am not as organized with my thougts on this as you.. but..