Why technique is the way it

[nessundorma]

At least in Smooth, dancing on the diagonal or with CBM has rendered the butt point moot. If I am extending and stretching across myself, there’s not a lot of butt to throw around. Stabilizing myself over a stretch and transferring weight certainly involves tone in the core, but as a result of the stretching, diagonal action--more like what I’d use in yoga to sustain and flow through a pose. For a while I was dancing in this incredibly aggressive way, very squared up with my partner even though I thought I was keeping weight to the left, and with a strong core, butt tucked and all that. It worked to iron out all the s-curves in the body, but it came at the expense of a lot of movement and much more reactive following. So, I don’t know. It’s something I’m still tinkering with in spite of plenty of very early exhortations from instructors.

In Latin, yes, I absolutely do lengthen the spine and very consciously transfer weight, so I need control over the pelvis and core. But I have a tendency to get very locked up if I focus too much on the whole flat back thing. Finding the diagonal is probably a much more dynamic way of dancing, if I could just find it. Not sure I’m saying any of this very well, but one thing I do mean to say is that I am wary of anything that comes across as dance dogma. Things unfold and evolve over time.

 

[tangotime]

I have taken 10+ years of privates and 20+ years of group classes (in Ballroom and many other partner dances), plus dozens if not hundred of coaching lessons, including with many top-ranked dancers in many genres.

I would be surprised if any of the other posters in this thread has taken as many lessons or have come across as many varied instructors/coaches as I have.
.

There you go again making assumptions about how no one has had more exposure to first class coaches, than you ( I'm really curious to know who YOU rate ? ). I was dance "raised " in an era and a location where there was an abundance of world class teachers ( too many world champions to mention ) and oddly enough I never came across one of them
who advocated in the terms you use, to get the results they did, i.e. produce world class dancers..

And, the length of time spent in lessons does not necessarily equate to superior knowledge.

Last.. I will agree that there are differences of opinions on some techniques by world class dancers/coaches ( Scrivener was certainly one, backed by sound theory ), which brings me to this point ; Your posts are primarily theoretical which begs the question, have you utilised them on others ?

The mark of great theory is its workable practical application in large sample sets, which I will assume that is not the case with your assertions , which makes them opinions with no basis of fact other than your own experiences .

NB.. Personally, I have coached in the recent past, numerous dancers who had been taking Private and group lessons for far more years than you keep quoting, it's NOT as uncommon as you believe .

 

[tangotime]

There you go again making assumptions about how no one has had more exposure to first class coaches, than you ( I'm really curious to know who YOU rate ? ). I was dance "raised " in an era and a location where there was an abundance of world class teachers ( too many world champions to mention ) and oddly enough I never came across one of them
who advocated in the terms you use, to get the results they did, i.e. produce world class dancers..

And, the length of time spent in lessons does not necessarily equate to superior knowledge.

Last.. I will agree that there are differences of opinions on some techniques by world class dancers/coaches ( Scrivener was certainly one, backed by sound theory ), which brings me to this point ; Your posts are primarily theoretical which begs the question, have you utilised them on others ?

The mark of great theory is its workable practical application in large sample sets, which I will assume that is not the case with your assertions , which makes them opinions with no basis of fact other than your own experiences .

NB.. Personally, I have coached in the recent past, numerous dancers who had been taking Private and group lessons for far more years than you keep quoting, it's NOT as uncommon as you believe .

I forgot to add this advice given by Bill Irvine ( he of 10 world championships )..
He stated that without these 3 components ,all will fail if losing one ;

1.. Balance control
2.. Muscle control
3.. Timing control
These 3 items "trump " all else no matter how perfect is the technique .

 

[IndyLady]

When you see "butts sticking out" you are seeing one of two things. One is the butt is actually sticking out because the lower spine is contracted pulling the hips up in back. This is not good. No one wants this.

The other thing you may see and mistake for a butt sticking out or spine out of alignment is this... The hips must swing freely front to back to allow the extension of the leg to create swing.

Or #3.... those of us with ample booties and swaybacks. (j/k, sort of).

Btw, that is all helpful information. I think I have been on the "porridge too hot" side of tucking (or whatever you want to call it), because the last two instructors have been pushing my hips away from them during smooth/standard dances (e.g I am blocking their forward progress).

 

[JudeMorrigan]

Thanks, Larinda. The number one reason I have zero interest in ever teaching is that I know that I am - in the words of the great poet Charles Barkley - "just turrible" at explaining things, even though I've had some lovely instruction and coaching. "Come on now [Jude], use you words" was a running joke for years in my lessons. I think I'll sit back and listen to the people who know what they're talking about and communicate well. Plus there's less chance of Cranky Jude sneaking out that way.

 

[j_alexandra]

<snip>

Dizziness is a response to physiological stimuli. The fluid in your ear will spin regardless of whether one spots or shapes a turn <snip>. You cannot stop the fluid from moving when you move.

But you can turn off the psychological reaction, simply through repetition, in the end cutting off the brains automatic assumption that the body is in danger and needs to sit down for safety's sake. It is repetition and mental focus that dampens the panic response and allows the body to continue to function in a normal manner.

You also have receptors in your feet that tell you whether or not you are standing up or falling sideways, as well as proprioception coming in from all parts of the body. Training your brain to pay attention to those signals instead of the spinning fluid in the loops in your ear is the key to overcoming dizziness.

I cannot like this enough. Larinda, you've written the clearest explanation of what happened when I had crippling vertigo for weeks, and Teach agreed to help me through it -- I went back into the studio, and he led me through underarm turns and spins, and I was dizzy as hell until I did exactly what you said: trained my brain to dampen its panic response, and to pay attention to receptors in my feet and my proprioception.

Thank you!

 

[vit]

The idea of "tucking" never comes up in ballroom because it is a horrible term and idea. The concept of intentionally contracting the lower abdominal muscles so that the butt tucks under is so misplaced. There is no reason to engage it so strongly that it pulls my lower spine underneath myself. You never hear the word "tuck" in ballroom because good ballroom teachers and coaches are taught from day one to never say that word.

Actually some ballroom teachers in my area are using some kind of similar ideas like Partner Dance when teaching adults some ballroom on some kind of hobby classes (meaning above ordinary social ballroom dance classes, but no competitive ambitions)

Problem is, most people have various sitting jobs, their spines are really not in good condition, their balance is bad, they have no idea about activating the core or swing etc but they would like to learn dancing ... their main problem is actually how to avoid falling when doing steps, so their core is stiff even at the beginning. However, since they are not very upright, teachers try to somehow make them more upright and address various parts of the core including pelvis during classes ... so they become even more stiff .. then they put the couple in a nice ballroom hold before they start dancing. Which of course falls apart in the middle of the second figure at best ...

One can't really teach someone a "technique" to use core muscles if half of those muscles become passive years ago. There is no such a magic technique and there are no shortcuts ... and many teachers unfortunately do more harm than good, especially those trying to invent new dance theories ... hope it's better in other parts of the world ...

edit: forgot to say thanks for great explanations above

 

[FancyFeet]

@Larinda McRaven I think I love you. My early dance career, I heard so many general warnings about "not sticking your butt out" in classes - even though I didn't - that I started to tuck, placing all sorts of stress on my lower back. I've spent the last year or so rediscovering neutral, and learning how to use my hips and pelvis to help me dance (rather than to block myself). This (overly) simple explanation definitely did not help me!

 

[IndyLady]

I've spent the last year or so rediscovering neutral

This is one of my biggest problems - you would think that "neutral" would be the default if you're not trying to do anything, but I don't seem to have a neutral and I struggle to find it. And this is for life in general, not just limited to spinal/ab/booty positioning in a dance setting.

 

[vit]

This is one of my biggest problems - you would think that "neutral" would be the default if you're not trying to do anything, but I don't seem to have a neutral and I struggle to find it. And this is for life in general, not just limited to spinal/ab/booty positioning in a dance setting.

I think that all of us have various "neutrals", just that most of them are not what our dance teachers think is neutral (or should be)

When you float in the water, then obviously most core muscles are in the state of minimum tension, so this is something neutral

When standing up relaxed, muscles are in some minimum energy mode needed for body to remain stable and avoid falling

Unfortunately, neither is good enough for dancing (especially performance/competitive). Doesn't look good and doesn't enable most efficient way of movement. So here, one needs "presentation" posture/shape. In some dance styles it is additionally shaped/curved

With lots of training, muscles get trained to work in great harmony when moving/dancing so that body shape isn't disturbed in unwanted ways. But there is no any magic technique to achieve it, it's mostly about general condition of the core; if it doesn't work good enough, there will always be some part of it sticking out somewhere. Even if it is only a social dancing, you feel it from your partner (and he/she from you) very well

As local well known dance/sport physiotherapist explained to my GF when she visited him, problem is (simplified) that with aging/much sitting, part of the core muscles becomes passive/weak, while other gets overloaded, so resulting action is uneven. Goal is to put them back to work

Interestingly, nobody commented PD's ballet technique of samba rocks on the previous page