Lilly_of_the_valley
Well-Known Member
I am just curious, has it really happened? From my observation, negative peer reviews have never had any significant weight among the followers.
With a different music a different dance.
- Thread starter Mario7
- Start date
I am just curious, has it really happened? From my observation, negative peer reviews have never had any significant weight among the followers.
Lui
Active Member
@ bordertangoman
When asking non dancing folks, those movies where associated with tango. Nobody I talked to mentioned any documentation, except it was aired the day before at prime time. “Tango lesson” is a nice fairy tale and Saura’s movie an interesting art movie, however I consider neither as representing for tango in general.
@Mario
I think it is only fair that the customers nows by it’s label what is in that box before they buy it. I label my Milonga and general alignment of teaching ”Traditional Tango” to set it apart from “Nuevo”. It’s not a perfect label, but it was the best I could think of.. “Tango Auténtico” sounded too bumptious, Retro-Tango has a negative connotation for me. If anybody has a better idea, I'm alway open to suggestions.
Real stage performance is hardly ever taught to or requested by European students – unfortunately. Otherwise they would not mistake the Milonga for a stage nor would they like to perform hard work in their free time.
@AndaBien
I assume you mean the 1880s. Otherwise I totally agree with you.
@opendoor
If your interpretation of the music entrances your students they will be convinced, at least at that moment, no matter what other people say. To me it is next to painful to see a couple entangled in slow movements, when a lively Foxtrot is played. They call it their personal style/discovery and there are many folks who will applaud to that.
@chrisjj....
I’m very happy that you seemed to like my Milonga. Unfortunately, I did not found time to talk to you for any longer time. Drop in the next time you are around.
You are right, Tango in Berlin is far from being dead and, yes, there is still a high number of Milongas around. If you compare the situation of today against the situation 12 years ago the number of visitors per Milonga has strongly decreased, the same has the profit. In the past it was easy to gather 100 people every given night of the week just by putting up the label Tango. Remember the Kalkscheune, big place and you were dancing so close that you could pull up your knee to the chin without dropping, the same at the Walzer. Of course, this development has some reason and those are usually connected to human beings, but I don’t like to point my finger at specific persons in public.
The general change is not a bad thing, as it forces Tango-providers to reevaluate their concept. This might lead to improvement of service and quality, which is very good, or to very low prices or both. Compared to other places Berlin has pretty low prices already and I have mixed feelings about that, as you can imagine. Strangely my Milonga gets a better payback when asking for donations as if I ask for the common entrance fee (around 2-3 € in Berlin for this kind of place). Nevertheless, it would be great if every Milonga would come up with a concept that makes it very special, so the dancers have an exciting variety to choose from.
I’m glad that Chicé is offering his Milongas again this year, but it flew by my attention. I looked up his side and his Milonga is clearly described as “[being with] traditioneller Musik, Tandas und Cortinas”. I think it’s a good thing that everybody is sharpening their profile.
In theory, the Walzer tried an “improved” concept when reopening last month. To me the new concept looked very much like the old one. Obviously it has failed on last Friday. But in every end there is a new opportunity.
PS.: While Sonja is an excellent chef for vegetarian dishes, the tapas were provided by the family of Laura la Risa, the proprietress of that venue.
When asking non dancing folks, those movies where associated with tango. Nobody I talked to mentioned any documentation, except it was aired the day before at prime time. “Tango lesson” is a nice fairy tale and Saura’s movie an interesting art movie, however I consider neither as representing for tango in general.
@Mario
I think it is only fair that the customers nows by it’s label what is in that box before they buy it. I label my Milonga and general alignment of teaching ”Traditional Tango” to set it apart from “Nuevo”. It’s not a perfect label, but it was the best I could think of.. “Tango Auténtico” sounded too bumptious, Retro-Tango has a negative connotation for me. If anybody has a better idea, I'm alway open to suggestions.
Real stage performance is hardly ever taught to or requested by European students – unfortunately. Otherwise they would not mistake the Milonga for a stage nor would they like to perform hard work in their free time.
@AndaBien
I assume you mean the 1880s. Otherwise I totally agree with you.
@opendoor
If your interpretation of the music entrances your students they will be convinced, at least at that moment, no matter what other people say. To me it is next to painful to see a couple entangled in slow movements, when a lively Foxtrot is played. They call it their personal style/discovery and there are many folks who will applaud to that.
@chrisjj....
I’m very happy that you seemed to like my Milonga. Unfortunately, I did not found time to talk to you for any longer time. Drop in the next time you are around.
You are right, Tango in Berlin is far from being dead and, yes, there is still a high number of Milongas around. If you compare the situation of today against the situation 12 years ago the number of visitors per Milonga has strongly decreased, the same has the profit. In the past it was easy to gather 100 people every given night of the week just by putting up the label Tango. Remember the Kalkscheune, big place and you were dancing so close that you could pull up your knee to the chin without dropping, the same at the Walzer. Of course, this development has some reason and those are usually connected to human beings, but I don’t like to point my finger at specific persons in public.
The general change is not a bad thing, as it forces Tango-providers to reevaluate their concept. This might lead to improvement of service and quality, which is very good, or to very low prices or both. Compared to other places Berlin has pretty low prices already and I have mixed feelings about that, as you can imagine. Strangely my Milonga gets a better payback when asking for donations as if I ask for the common entrance fee (around 2-3 € in Berlin for this kind of place). Nevertheless, it would be great if every Milonga would come up with a concept that makes it very special, so the dancers have an exciting variety to choose from.
I’m glad that Chicé is offering his Milongas again this year, but it flew by my attention. I looked up his side and his Milonga is clearly described as “[being with] traditioneller Musik, Tandas und Cortinas”. I think it’s a good thing that everybody is sharpening their profile.
In theory, the Walzer tried an “improved” concept when reopening last month. To me the new concept looked very much like the old one. Obviously it has failed on last Friday. But in every end there is a new opportunity.
PS.: While Sonja is an excellent chef for vegetarian dishes, the tapas were provided by the family of Laura la Risa, the proprietress of that venue.
To be honest, i don't know. Thats why i labeled it as an ego thing. There are a few followers that noticable avoid making eye-contact, and a few of them i know that i have never danced with, but then they just might not like my style based on watching me. But this is more about dreams and fears, than what really happens, i think.
I am mostly musing about the "why" for this need to define the "REAL" tango, with "REAL" tango music, and i think it is based on this dream of the perfect milonga where every tanda is perfect tango bliss. And real life is not like that, so we wonder how to fix it, and so we end up with this whole list of things that are wrong with milongas:
People who dance differently from me
Music that is different from what i would like
Other leaders getting into my way
People that i want to dance with not dancing with me
People that i don't want to dance with dancing with me
and so we create this story that we would have a wondeful time at a milonga where everybody dances real tango, the dj plays real tango music, people have proper floorcraft, and the codigos are followed in the proper way. In reality even if we could create that place it would probably a disappointment - utopias don't tend to survive contact with reality
. Like dchester points out the first and easiest thing to work on if there are social problems is me. Gssh
I can only speak for myself as a follower. I don't think I have EVER refused a dance because another follower told me the leader wasn't any good. On the other hand, I never refuse anyone unless they are one of the 2 or 3 people who I know are going to cause me actual physical pain.
I also rarely (if ever) tell another follower that a leader is bad. What's bad for me might be great for someone else who meshes with that leader better.
What DOES happen:
I or another follower will have a bad experience with a leader and we will mention it more as a question to other followers. As in:
"I find it very hard to make a good connection with so-and-so.. do you have this problem with him?"
or: "You always look so good with Leader X, but I can't follow him to save my life!"
or: "He and I must not hear the music the same because the interpretation and flow never feel natural to me".
or at the very least: "I really like Mr Milonguero for tango, but I really prefer Dudely Waltzright for a tanda of Vals and I don't enjoy milonga with either of them!"
These comments usually illicit responses that range from "Me too!" to "Really? I LOVE dancing with him".
I have occasionally gotten this response when I say someone looks good with a particular leader, but I struggle with him: "Oh, he's a terrible leader, but I've gotten used to him" (BTW - that's something I would NEVER say... I certainly find a more charitable way to express it!)
So to sum up, I'd say that more often than badmouthing a leader to influence other followers, followers talk among themselves to determine whether the experience they already had was shared by other followers who HAVE danced with him.
I don't see much reason to discuss a leader with someone who hasn't ever danced with him (except maybe to recommend him!) I'm also not going to bother asking about someone I haven't danced with in lieu of accepting his invite or just watching him for a bit with different partners. There have been leaders I've really enjoyed that weren't popular with a friend, and leaders that another follower LOVED that I was underwhelmed by.
Sorta like teachers... :wink:
Dave Bailey
Active Member
And it's not unreasonable for a potential customer to ask that a product he's considering buying is accurately-described.
However:
That level of jargon simply won't work. Partially because the labels are controversial, and partially because it's a meaningless label anyway. I mean "Traditional" to where? And when?
What you want is a definition of what will be taught in a class, plus some indication of the emphasis. A syllabus, in other words.
No.
Describe your product clearly, and stick to it. Don't "label" it - labels are divisive, inaccurate and tend to become jargon.
It sounds to me like you should try to understand your personal values better. You're doing dances that you don't particular enjoy for the sake of community. Ask yourself, if you were dancing for the sake of community, wouldn't you enjoy those dances? Or, do you think "community" is a politically correct concept, which maybe you are trying to embrace because of your ego?
As for me, I thoroughly enjoy the community aspect of tango, but I enjoy quality dancing more. There are women who I don't dance with, because their and my styles are not compatible. I would like to find great pleasure in dancing their style, but I just don't. If I was new to tango, I think I should become familiar with all styles, then dance the ones I enjoyed. I have been around for a while and I know my preferences. That's how I dance.
tangobro
Active Member
So what would you call the style of Melina & Detlef, the couple in the 2nd example?
I've heard several Argentine instructors who have their roots in the milongas rather than as trained dancers say that the stylized way of walking is not "traditional" tango. In the workshops I've taken Detlef taught a stylized way of walking (which I admire although my primary teachers advocate "Traditional Tango").
In an upcoming workshop Melina & Detlef are doing in NYC the only reference to a tango style says "Tango de Salon", which is a really broad basket.
Unfortunately this link on tangotuscany.com to Melina and Detlef in March 2010 is no longer available.
disclaimer - the milonga workshops are more specifically labeled as milonga lisa and milonga con traspie
I like the fact that the promoter of the workshop provides video links. You can see them dance & make your decision based on what you see rather than a label.
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Yeah, but then people would NEVER move around the floor and we'd have to dance in place for the entire evening!
Lui
Active Member
Well, this is really a very tricky point. In Berlin many people have simply no experience to dance in small space. Most dancer consider Tango as a fun free time activity. For them fun is connected to show or acrobatic figures. For quite a long time now, this stuff seems to sell so much easier. I now try an alternative approach. I try to lure more dancers into the joy of small and playful dancing. However this is not as easy, because tiny movements are much less forgiving against sloppy dancing than big ones. Many dancers don’t want to be too critical against themselves in their free time.
As my little Milonga start to gain some popularity, it also attracts dancers who don’t share my philosophy. We have a rather tiny dance floor, nevertheless those visitors start to do dramatic poses, huge volcadas and even jumps. Obviously, that is not in my interest, but what shall I do?
So far I tried to dance with as many women as possible entertaining them by using small and playful steps. Occasionally, I might drop a funny comment when I need to get out of the way of a dancer well known to her. Maybe they get the hint.
I will not deny that I'm not always successful at this crusade. Some woman do large steps by default, as well as hight leg movements. In the end, I’m lucky, when we get over our tanda without hitting anyone or anything valuable. Last milonga, I talked to a guy who started his teaching session in the middle of my Milonga and just began his discussion part right on the outer lane of the dance floor. I explained him my concept very friendly. Then I asked him to simply enjoy the evening and keep on dancing. Nevertheless he was deeply hurt in his honor. The consequents was: I had a shadow “correcting” all my mistakes, like blocking a lane – when I was carrying in another table. Should I have kicked him out? Some of you might say yes. However, I’m convinced that all his friends would have little understanding for my action. I want to keep up a friendly atmosphere, since too much bad blood would be the dagger in the back for seducing people to dance small, and me having fun.
So for me this is a very serious question: When pushing off the dance floor is no option, what shall I do about it?
Ps.: I’m sorry if I was a smart-Alec about the food, but I’m just so very happy that Laura offers this service.
As my little Milonga start to gain some popularity, it also attracts dancers who don’t share my philosophy. We have a rather tiny dance floor, nevertheless those visitors start to do dramatic poses, huge volcadas and even jumps. Obviously, that is not in my interest, but what shall I do?
So far I tried to dance with as many women as possible entertaining them by using small and playful steps. Occasionally, I might drop a funny comment when I need to get out of the way of a dancer well known to her. Maybe they get the hint.
I will not deny that I'm not always successful at this crusade. Some woman do large steps by default, as well as hight leg movements. In the end, I’m lucky, when we get over our tanda without hitting anyone or anything valuable. Last milonga, I talked to a guy who started his teaching session in the middle of my Milonga and just began his discussion part right on the outer lane of the dance floor. I explained him my concept very friendly. Then I asked him to simply enjoy the evening and keep on dancing. Nevertheless he was deeply hurt in his honor. The consequents was: I had a shadow “correcting” all my mistakes, like blocking a lane – when I was carrying in another table. Should I have kicked him out? Some of you might say yes. However, I’m convinced that all his friends would have little understanding for my action. I want to keep up a friendly atmosphere, since too much bad blood would be the dagger in the back for seducing people to dance small, and me having fun.
So for me this is a very serious question: When pushing off the dance floor is no option, what shall I do about it?
Ps.: I’m sorry if I was a smart-Alec about the food, but I’m just so very happy that Laura offers this service.
I agree completely. Sometimes I wonder if the followers could have an effect by letting their partners know, without damaging egos, that they would prefer to dance in accordance with standard etiquette. If he declined they could refrain from dancing with him again.
After all, guys are only on the dance floor when they have someone to dance with.
I think ultimately, you will have to ask someone to leave who will not conform to the environment you want to create. It should be rare, and take many warnings before it happens, though. Of course, the more crowded it is, the easier it is to get away with it, (and the less crowded it is, the less people will understand why you are making such a fuss).As my little Milonga start to gain some popularity, it also attracts dancers who don’t share my philosophy. We have a rather tiny dance floor, nevertheless those visitors start to do dramatic poses, huge volcadas and even jumps. Obviously, that is not in my interest, but what shall I do?
. . .
So for me this is a very serious question: When pushing off the dance floor is no option, what shall I do about it?
What else can you do?
- Greet people (especially newbies and known offenders), and make sure they are aware of the atmosphere you are trying to have there.
- Have flyers on the tables saying what the rules/guidelines are.
- Maybe once an hour (or as needed), giving a reminder to the crowd, in place of or after the cortina.
- In between tandas, talk to the leaders who are not staying within your guidelines (saying something during the tanda is much more aggressive, and only should be done for something egregious).
- Basically, anything that will take away the excuse that they didn't know that your milonga was different from the norm in your area.
bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
i think this is commonsense; if you want people to abide by certain rules/or codes make it a club so you when people arrive, even as members or guests they are made aware of the "Rules".
Nothing so annoying as "the converted"; who used to play Gotan and Narigon ( or even the New York Howl!) at their milongas but complain if you play Joaquin Amenabar or Orchestra Berretin.
Light Sleeper
New Member
Subtract the music and what's left? 'Atmosphere' and steps.
I think that this is one of the main two reasons that the 'traditional' fans are feeling sad when they see 'Tango' going on this other path...sure, it's a different dance...and they lose their embrace and their music. So, in my dumb opinion, if the two dances were called by a different name, and if the 'teachers' could limit their market instead of grabbing for every student possible....then we could all co exist.
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Well, my problem IS the music!! In my purely personal opinion, that's a horrible version of one of my favourite tangos.
Mario7
Member
Unfortunately, most tango musicians today inspire more sympathy than dancing.
Ampster
Active Member
Well, this is really a very tricky point. In Berlin many people have simply no experience to dance in small space. Most dancer consider Tango as a fun free time activity. For them fun is connected to show or acrobatic figures. For quite a long time now, this stuff seems to sell so much easier. I now try an alternative approach. I try to lure more dancers into the joy of small and playful dancing. However this is not as easy, because tiny movements are much less forgiving against sloppy dancing than big ones. Many dancers don’t want to be too critical against themselves in their free time.
As my little Milonga start to gain some popularity, it also attracts dancers who don’t share my philosophy. We have a rather tiny dance floor, nevertheless those visitors start to do dramatic poses, huge volcadas and even jumps. Obviously, that is not in my interest, but what shall I do?
Lui:
In Seattle, when you want to expand on a certain style, or discipline, it can be helped along by importing really good/reputable teachers who can demonstrate and teach (aside from yourself), that which you are trying to propagate... i.e. dancing in small spaces.
That way, your milonga becomes the core of said discipline/style. You're in Germany, have you ever considered inviting Detlef and Melina to your milonga?
Detlef and Melina in Seattle
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Didactic in German
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