Enlightening Conversations

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Yes. (Emotional) vipers and leeches probably would be as much harmed as helped by a foot in the door. But ... how does one draw the line?

I honestly can't say. I just know that when I start getting that acid-in-the-gut feeling around a person, I need some time for introspection. That's awfully fuzzy, but that truly is what I use. I try to listen to myself. When someone is violating my boundaries my body sends signals that I have to be awake enough to feel/see/hear.


And the other piece of it, IMHO, is my own level of attachment or emotional engagement. If my car mechanic talks for hours and hours about his failing marriage, I acknowledge that it's sad, but (forgive me for being honest) I only care so much, because I don't know him. Hearing him talk about his life is sad, but it doesn't drain my emotional resources.

OTOH, if I've given emotional commitment to someone (friend, coworker, family member, etc.) and they drone on and on for hours about something, that costs me, because I know them, care about them, and hold myself accountable to be engaged in the things that are important to them.


Two completely different scenarios, IMV.
 
I guess it works differently for me...everyone's life is different...the people in my life whose issues are draining and about whom I care are not leeches or vipers (thank goodness), the people that are on the periphery for me who are draining are also not leeches or vipers....people in my family who are self absorbed are not really something I give much time or energy to, and I don't have friends who are the sorts of folks who are in that mode either...it is, as I said, a shifting ratio that I don't often stop to observe other than to monitor my own levels of sensitivity to about how supportive I am being...as to people who might be beyond sick and with whom I interact occupationally; I have empathy for that, and I know how to handle it in a way that doesn't feed the beast...I find all of it taxing, regardless...doing the right thing always takes energy in situation such as this....at least for me...regardless of how close I am to the person...but I know how to handle it, which is to give it none of my energy in a way that encourages it
 
DL said:
How much time do you have in mind?

Consider, for example, parent-child relationships...
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Exactly. My relationship with DS will balance out over the 60-ish (I hope and pray) years we'll share on the planet. But... at not-quite-fourteen, he has long since started to show signs of his perception that it's not all about him and there needs to be balance. He cares about me and asks me how I am and what I'm thinking every day. Did I mention that I love my son? He's a beautiful person. Selfless and kind. :-)


One of my dear friends went through the death of a child, the infidelity of a mate, a divorce and subsequent bankruptcy. It took years for our conversations to stop being mostly about him. And that's okay with me. And now we talk a lot about me. He learned a lot about life during those years,. And now he feels he can share with me. And that's okay too. Eh. *shrug*
 
and if it doesn't balance out who cares?...I mean...does it need to? ...just like with his report card scores...if he's short a few points does it mean he didn't hold up his end of the bargain?...heck no...people give what they can give...and none of us is "true north" so to speak anyhow...we all know when something is so out of whack that we are dealing with a true narcissist at worst or simply someone too much in user mode to be in our lives ...but that leaves a whole bunch of percieved inequity in the middle that IMO, is best not evaluated...we shouldn't be measuring these things as it implies expectations, or at least a tendency toward them, that will gnerally inevitably leave us ...disappointed
 
pygmalion said:
Amen to this, P. Lots of perspectives on this. I wonder what my GF (who has my same first name) thinks. I invited her to lunch today, so maybe I'll ask and find out.

She really rocks in that she's not afraid of honest conversation about touchy and/or emotional issues. I can talk to her about this. :-)

And you bring up a good point. Every relationship involving two people has a minimum of two perspectives. Often more.
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Just speaking from experience. I could easily be called the self-absorbed, perpetually navel-gazing friend. That's fair. 'Cept friend is particularly quiet and self-sufficient. If friend had something they wanted to talk about--to me--I'd be all ears. If friend needed something, I'd trip over myself to be there. But...as it is...crickets.
 
fascination said:
and if it doesn't balance out who cares?...I mean...does it need to?
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If balance means add up to exactly 50/50, then no. Of course not. But if balance means find a place where each person gets a lot of what they want and each is mostly happy with what they get most of the time, then yes. It has no. Not necessarily out of the box,, but eventually.

Otherwise, I think it''s a user/usee relationship but possibly not friendship.
 
aside from what i've already said on the subject, i tend to think of what i give to others as part of a larger loop of giving and receiving. i do not necessarily personalize it. in that way, what i am giving is unconditional, and an investment on more of a collective level than personal. if someone needs something, and i am able and internally guided or prompted to give it, i will give it, and not count what i have given because i have a personal knowing that it "registers" on a universal level and automatically is compensated.

but it's not a "give to get" scenario. by *giving* you also assert that you *know* that something is yours, if that makes sense. by giving compassion, you own that for yourself. by giving patience, you own that for yourself. by giving understanding, you own that for yourself. by giving wisdom, you own that for yourself. even by giving material support of some kind, you own that you are sufficiently materially supported that you have a surplus.

you cannot give what you do not have, so by giving it's an investment in that knowing that you *have* it. that benefit "comes back" to you instantaneously -- it *becomes* a part of you, with more roots, or as part of the "structure" of who you are. it's an instantaneous exchange. and that's return enough. that's balance enuf for me.
 
samina said:
aside from what i've already said on the subject, i tend to think of what i give to others as part of a larger loop of giving and receiving. i do not necessarily personalize it. in that way, what i am giving is unconditional, and an investment on more of a collective level than personal. if someone needs something, and i am able and internally guided or prompted to give it, i will give it, and not count what i have given because i have a personal knowing that it "registers" on a universal level and automatically is compensated.

but it's not a "give to get" scenario. by *giving* you also assert that you *know* that something is yours, if that makes sense. by giving compassion, you own that for yourself. by giving patience, you own that for yourself. by giving understanding, you own that for yourself. by giving wisdom, you own that for yourself. even by giving material support of some kind, you own that you are sufficiently materially supported that you have a surplus.

you cannot give what you do not have, so by giving it's an investment in that knowing that you *have* it. that benefit "comes back" to you instantaneously -- it *becomes* a part of you, with more roots, or as part of the "structure" of who you are. it's an instantaneous exchange. and that's return enough. that's balance enuf for me.
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exactly
 
Yup. :cool:


Total change of subject (I suppose no one is surprised by my inability to stay on topic, by now. :lol: )

I had a really interesting interchange with a camera-crazy friend yesterday. She was roaming around, taking pictures of various people at work for a newsletter I write. When she asked a GF for her picture, the GF did the stereotypical girlie thing "Ooh. Look at my hair! My outfit! Can't you take it tomorrow instead?"

When she asked me I said "Sure. I can be as beautiful or as ugly and as fat or skinny any day of the week. Why not take it now?"

No judgment about the two reactions. Both are valid.

What I found interesting was the reaction of my camera toting friend. She absolutely would not my accept the use of the words fat or ugly. Period. She kept saying, "Ok. Beautiful. But why do you have to use the other word?" Uhh... Because I'm using it to illustrate extremes on a continuum? Because neither label means a whole lot to me, in the scheme of things? Tons of other reasons? *shrug*

I went through a thing probably twenty years ago, where I learned to detach myself from words like ugly or beautiful. fat or skinny (for the most part.) To me, they're just descriptors, and subjective at that. It's black. It's white. It's large. It's small. He's tall. He's short. I'm fat. I'm thin. Whatever. To my GF, not so much. Eh.

Not sure what point I'm trying to make or question to ask (if any.) I just think that there are some seeds for conversation in there -- either about the labels and their meanings or people's reactions to words, or something else that I don't see.

Or maybe not... :-)
 
your friend may be working through her own judgments about herself & others, trying to grow in the area of lookind beyond appearances, and that's what your words may have triggered in her. and she may have projected that onto you, not realizing that you don't have the same judgments.

but aside from the issue of self-acceptance & other-acceptance beyond appearances... they are also words, and words have meaning, and power, and it's good to be aware of that. defending from recognizing "fat" and "ugly" can be a way to defend against seeing the messages those states convey.

there may be some positive aspects to acknowledging "fatness" or "ugliness" because they can be signs of things that are begging for correction, whether now or eventually when the time is right. regarding one's fatness dispassionately but factually can be a way to acknowledge that something may be out of balance or alignment in one's life or self -- it could be a defense, a kind of protection. it could be a way to add a sense of "power" or comfort when one needs it. it could be a sign that one is allowing many distractions into one's life and not focusing on essentials. it could be stuck-ness. it could be lack of balance in one's food (over-chemicalization or an acidic state) that is causing chronic bloat & inflammation. "fat is beautiful" can be a way to insulate against recognizing these valuable bits of personal understanding, just as "fat is beautiful" can be deeply compassionate and accepting. neither is absolute.

"ugliness" is a sign of disharmony. unresolved anger, grief, insecurity, or victim-mindedness and worry can make someone very "ugly". it can also be associated with poor health & self-care. seeing that in one's face, how one is injuring oneself, can be an unpleasant but helpful reality check.

for my part, aside from recognizing these markers, when i see "fat" or "ugly" when i'm out in the world, i straddle the paradox and always affirm & connect with the person's innate beauty, wholeness, power, safety, and ability to find the balance & peace they are seeking in life. i'd rather leave a silent blessing on them as i pass rather than affirm that they are stuck in how they may be temporarily experiencing their reality.
 
Interesting, multi-layered post, as usual sami. :-D Will ponder.

Not sure why, but your post made me think about the early Tony Robbins tapes and videos, in which he talks about his moment of decision to change his life. He talks about being fat the same way he talks about being broke, despondent, and a bunch of other things.

I found his observations a bit discordant because he repeatedly mentioned being 40 pounds overweight and being fat. And I thought uhh... We're talking about Tony Robbins, right? The giant, tall, tall man? Who could see or feel 40 pounds, at that height? But, to him, being "fat" was a big deal. (No pun intended, obviously.)


On a somewhat related note, I have found that, when I'm in a mode where I'm in control of what I ingest, I tend to be more in control of other aspects of my life. This does not mean that my career, relationships, finances, etc are only okay when I avoid hot dogs. lol. But control is the issue. I can be in control and choosing to splurge on the awesome, probably 3000-calorie dinner that my GF made for a special occasion. Or I can be out of control, while eating a bag full of tasteless, low-calorie chips. When I'm in control of myself, I am, When I'm out of control of myself, I am. ETA: I'm not sure I like the word control, but I can't think of a better one. *shrug*

Long story short, I resonate with your observations about "fat" and "ugly." The outer appearance of fat or ugly can reflect an inner physical or mental reality of poor health, neglect or adversity. Hmm. ETA: And I suppose I should add that inner judgment of I'm fat or I'm ugly cen reflect those things as well.

Hmm...
 
I'm sorry. I wasn't clear. There were two girlfriends -- one who was concerned about her appearance yesterday, another with a camera and who didn't like the word fat.

And yeah. I totally get where the first GF -- the one concerned about her hair and outfit -- was coming from. She has every right to want to look her best in a picture that will exist on the company intranet for far too long, if not forever. :cool:

And the GF who doesn't like fat? Well I get that too. I have a handful of trigger words, as well. I just found it interesting because I could literally feel her resistance to the words fat and ugly. Her resistance was like a wall, which probably doesn't make sense. I could feel it. I'm sure she has her own story around those words or concepts. Which is cool. Just made me think. :-)
 
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