That's what I meant by having reasonably similar goals -- for the partnership. With one partner the goal is work on cool moves. With the other partner work on improving her skills so you could eventually work on cool moves.
A bad practice partner is better than no partner?
- Thread starter OthinkingDesign
- Start date
Tango Distance
Well-Known Member
https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-G9YPFL2K8/
Why did you quit Tango? (Select all answers you feel apply.)
- Answered: 561
- Skipped: 60
| ANSWER CHOICES | RESPONSES |
|---|---|
| Too few milongas and/or practicas locally | 9.80% 55 |
| Local community too small | 16.22% 91 |
| Found dance partners to be too critical or rude | 26.38% 148 |
| Couldn't find someone to practice with. | 32.62% 183 |
| Ended partnership with significant other/dance partner | 10.34% 58 |
| Didn't like the music | 3.74% 21 |
| Too much time and effort to get proficient (too difficult) | 14.26% 80 |
| Pace of instruction too slow, tedious and laborious | 9.27% 52 |
| Too elitist | 37.61% 211 |
| Too exclusionary/cliquish | 54.19% 304 |
| Close embrace too intimate/uncomfortable | 6.42% 36 |
| Availabililty of instruction too far away or too infrequent | 10.16% 57 |
| No one to dance with (ratio of women to men not balanced) | 37.97% 213 |
| Tango community divisive politics | 26.92% 151 |
| Too expensive | 13.73% 77 |
| Didn't like instructor | 6.42% 36 |
| Lifestyle change such as: moved, got married, had children or lost job | 14.26% 80 |
| Wrong age group or political/social demographic | 13.73% 77 |
| Not fun | 16.40% 92 |
| Religious reasons | 0.53% 3 |
| Didn't make new friends | 11.59% 65 |
| Too serious | 18.72% 105 |
| Total Respondents: 561 |
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Frustration. Self-consciousness. Ostracism. Of course, those are all social reasons as well.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Almost always the case here, with more leaders than followers, so much more competition. Classes and (some) prácticas can be different though, either balanced or more followers than leaders. But at most milongas here you have a lot of guys.
I remember this survey. I think it was one of the primary reasons for me to start posting here.
From the percentages it clear people provided more than one reason. To me following stands out:
Too exclusionary/clique - 54%.
This will depend on local scenes. In general tango is far more cliquish than any other dance community. No other dance community defends and takes pride in cliquishness the way tango people do 
And unwelcoming to strangers and faces not seen before.
And unwelcoming to strangers and faces not seen before.
The local milongas are notorious for this. People including me skip certain milongas or dance less due to this. Know people who quit due to it.
It is also the top reason.
Too elitist 37.61%Everyone makes fun of this attitude in tango including the tango dancers themselves. It is a common stereotype that generally holds true.
Third most cited reason but barely edged by second more popular reason at 37.97% with not getting dances due to imbalance.
Tango politics 27%Too serious 18%
Above four are all social issues nothing to do with the dance itself. Any reason with above 35% is in the top quartile. Only other reason that scores more than 35% is not getting dances at milongas due to imbalance.Lack for practice partner 32%
I know a number of guys that quit due to this reason. I never heard that as a real from the women. This cuts across all dances. It is not confine to tango. I think a leader has steeper learning curve at the start. Men think if they are able to practice moves/patterns/cool moves then they will get better faster. This attitude persists whether a man is learning tango, salsa, swing, or any other dance. With no one to lead a guy can’t practice what he learnt in the class. Most beginner followers can go social dancing and find it easy to dance with any leader slightly more experienced. It is easy to compare and notice difference to their peer leaders group from the class. Therefore less incentive for a follower to practice with a struggling peer leader. To be fair a beginner follower won’t benefit from practicing with beginner leader who is working through his own struggles. There is always that one guy who is more experienced willing to take a beginner follower under his wings!! 
More than one if she is pretty or young 
More than one if she is pretty or young
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OthinkingDesign
Active Member
So if I come back in 6 months, I'll be able to do back sacadas?
Oh... I have to TRAIN during that time?
This is it in a nutshell. I have been that innocently bad beginner learner, wishing like crazy for a more advanced dancer to practice with me. I know now that what I really wanted was Free Teaching but I called it "practicing." Completely understandable, but also somewhat unreasonable. But I didn't know that back then.
Back in the day, I contacted a couple of people through a dance-partner-search website, and "tried out" with one of them. He was considerably more knowledgeable and skilled than I. At the end of the tryout, he basically said, come back when you've learned something.
Was he wrong? Not really. He didn't want to be my Free Teacher. I know now that's fair enough, and that I could have hurt him and basically impeded his own dancing.
A few years later, I had learned a bit, and Guy 2 asked me to practice with him. Now, I'm not saying I was skilled and experienced, but I was a tiny tiny bit more knowledgeable than before, and more aware of what's what than Guy 2 -- to such an extent that I realized that what he really wanted from me was Free Teaching but he called it "practicing." He wanted someone to help him learn. I politely declined, partly because I was pretty sure that I didn't really know squat, and 100% certain (from experience) that he would hurt me.
Was I wrong? I don't think so. I continue to dance with him in group classes and at socials. As the years move along, he has remained the same dancer while I have studied and learned and, I hope, improved.
Guy 3 has asked me both to be his practice partner and his lesson partner. I have politely declined. He has now found a lesson partner and is taking lessons at a different studio. Of course, he will ask me at a social if I can help him work through what he's been doing with his teacher and lesson partner. I fall for it almost every time, because I dance with him at socials and it's more comfortable to do that when he's not pushing my shoulders behind me, or off--time, or... But I will not be his lesson partner or practice partner, because he's motivated by money and is actually pretty up front about it*. He wants Free Teaching, but calls it "practicing." And he will hurt me, as I know from experience.
Am I wrong?
*"I spent $500 on Viennese Waltz, I should have it right by now," verbatim quote
Miradamiranda
Well-Known Member
Reading all your posts about practice partners and bad habits and the social aspect etc. makes me wonder how on earth did I manage to get this far.
I never could find a practice partner. I still today can’t think back on ever practicing more with anyone other than an added song or two at the end of a workshop with someone from the workshop.
Practicas in my small town were only distinguishable from milongas by the earlier hours and more casual attire. And that maybe a few ‘staff’ dancers were encouraged to work the room.
My schedule didn’t allow me to attend the only available class at my level - Monday nights - until my kid could drive herself to/from school, so I didn’t make many contacts, and the only learning I had was through private lessons. I was so frustrated and stopped and started so many times.
But the positive side of only learning directly with my maestro was that I wasn’t able to develop bad habits, because since he was the only person I danced with, he’d correct me right away. The negative side of only dancing with him was that he was the only person I was able to dance with. At the practilongas mentioned above, I didn’t understand anything of what my peers were doing if they didn’t do it as clearly as my maestro. So in their eyes I was the eternal beginner. I knew nothing of vocabulary. I didn't know the terms of moves and never learned actual moves. “What’s an Parada?” All we worked on with my perfectionist teacher was technique, posture and learning to interpret which direction to go to according to what the lead was giving me.
So frustrating. And expensive.
What changed was two-fold:
1) I finally was able to attend more classes and workshops with visiting teachers. Thank goodness I didn’t need to enroll with a partner as we’d rotate non-stop. So I started making some contacts for very basic dances in our casual milongas and practilongas. But still no practice partner.
2) I started dancing with people who didn’t see me as just that eternal beginner.
Since I learned well how to follow, if I danced with a lead who was very clear, I could execute really advanced moves that I had never actually learned.
I traveled for work and showed up alone at milongas knowing nobody in big cities and lo and behold, I got dances with very good leaders. “Holy cow, I can do this!” And then I was beyond the point of no return.
I had a few years of tango heaven, where I could carry my weight in festivals and milongas in other cities, and then Covid hit. Practicas still haven’t picked up much, but the few I’ve been to in recent months, I’ve tried to use as opportunities to practice leading. Or if I‘m dancing with a leader at a practica, it would tend to be with someone much less experienced, so I’d be in that free teaching situation.
I never could find a practice partner. I still today can’t think back on ever practicing more with anyone other than an added song or two at the end of a workshop with someone from the workshop.
Practicas in my small town were only distinguishable from milongas by the earlier hours and more casual attire. And that maybe a few ‘staff’ dancers were encouraged to work the room.
My schedule didn’t allow me to attend the only available class at my level - Monday nights - until my kid could drive herself to/from school, so I didn’t make many contacts, and the only learning I had was through private lessons. I was so frustrated and stopped and started so many times.
But the positive side of only learning directly with my maestro was that I wasn’t able to develop bad habits, because since he was the only person I danced with, he’d correct me right away. The negative side of only dancing with him was that he was the only person I was able to dance with. At the practilongas mentioned above, I didn’t understand anything of what my peers were doing if they didn’t do it as clearly as my maestro. So in their eyes I was the eternal beginner. I knew nothing of vocabulary. I didn't know the terms of moves and never learned actual moves. “What’s an Parada?” All we worked on with my perfectionist teacher was technique, posture and learning to interpret which direction to go to according to what the lead was giving me.
So frustrating. And expensive.
What changed was two-fold:
1) I finally was able to attend more classes and workshops with visiting teachers. Thank goodness I didn’t need to enroll with a partner as we’d rotate non-stop. So I started making some contacts for very basic dances in our casual milongas and practilongas. But still no practice partner.
2) I started dancing with people who didn’t see me as just that eternal beginner.
Since I learned well how to follow, if I danced with a lead who was very clear, I could execute really advanced moves that I had never actually learned.
I traveled for work and showed up alone at milongas knowing nobody in big cities and lo and behold, I got dances with very good leaders. “Holy cow, I can do this!” And then I was beyond the point of no return.
I had a few years of tango heaven, where I could carry my weight in festivals and milongas in other cities, and then Covid hit. Practicas still haven’t picked up much, but the few I’ve been to in recent months, I’ve tried to use as opportunities to practice leading. Or if I‘m dancing with a leader at a practica, it would tend to be with someone much less experienced, so I’d be in that free teaching situation.
OthinkingDesign
Active Member
I feel extremely lucky for my practica partners, because of their skill, communication and willingness. Qualities I recognise now, as being rare.
My latest practice partner, we have been together for a year, has reached a point where we BOTH are growing but it did not start that way...
I took a break from tango (conveniently before Covid hit) due to multiple life situations changing, during that time my current practice partner found someone else to work with, to continue her progress. When I came back to tango, she came back to practice with me on Tuesdays but was no longer free on weekends - thus inspiring me to find another partner.
On the surface I needed someone with the following qualities:
- Someone who would/could dance both open and close embrace: I dance on both open/close and need someone who is willing to dance both.
- Someone similar to my height: this simply makes dancing close embrace significantly more comfortable
- Someone still "malleable": there are lots of free followers with many of them asking to practice with me, but I recognised they would not be willing to deviate past what they already know, or explore the many possibilities out there.
- Someone who will be able to grow WITH me: any partner I choose, would have to bridge the gap between our skills, because when that happens then I would start growing.
Long story short, I noticed one follower who I recognised as having potential and our personalities worked together. It took maybe 6 months (2-4 hours a week) of me "teaching her" but she grew with meteoric speed and now we're both at a level where we are BOTH growing.
I feel extremely blessed to have two AMAZING partners.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
I don't think it's entirely unreasonable. I've practiced with beginners and, although it involves some "teaching," I find it enjoyable. We all had to learn somehow and it's not always easy to find someone who is your exact equal as a practice partner. You may not want to do this all the time--you want to enhance your own skills--but some of the time is okay. Especially if you get along well with the person you're practicing with.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
People can be too quick to judge what's bad, good, reasonable, or unreasonable in this regard. Context is important.
Today, my partner and I worked with our coach. Then, exchanging her "coach" hat for her "teacher" hat, our coach worked with a lone woman dancer. She kept me there for the next slot as this woman's learning and practice partner. So, it was a clear case of "more advanced practice partner as teacher," but in the larger framework of actual teaching.
This was exactly my role for 4 years at the tango studio where I worked. I was not a teacher, but was present at the practices very explicitly to teach through being available to practice. And I wasn't the only one doing this.
So, if there's at least some actual teaching going on and the teacher, the student, and the practice partner are all aware of each other and their roles, it's a great learning environment.
Today, my partner and I worked with our coach. Then, exchanging her "coach" hat for her "teacher" hat, our coach worked with a lone woman dancer. She kept me there for the next slot as this woman's learning and practice partner. So, it was a clear case of "more advanced practice partner as teacher," but in the larger framework of actual teaching.
This was exactly my role for 4 years at the tango studio where I worked. I was not a teacher, but was present at the practices very explicitly to teach through being available to practice. And I wasn't the only one doing this.
So, if there's at least some actual teaching going on and the teacher, the student, and the practice partner are all aware of each other and their roles, it's a great learning environment.
If you enjoy it, you enjoy it. And if you can turn it into practice for yourself instead of just a favor for the other person, that's great. But it's definitely a different type of practice.
As I said: beginners are rarely the bad practice partner. At worst they are a partner who is inappropriate to your goals. But it's possible to gain something from practicing with them because they will usually do simple moves and you can work on your technique. Or you can improve your understanding by explaining.
The usual bad practice partner is an "intermediates" who want to "practice" or learn cool moves , refuses to work on technique and whose technical flaws make it difficult or impossible to actually learn "cool moves" with them. At least when these people are leads spending too much time with them can make a follow worse. (I'll leave it to the leads to describe what kinds of follows can make leads worse.)
I never had a practice partner. Other than classes all my practice was either at practicalongas (which are of casual milongas) and at milongas. To best I can tell most dancers I seen grow from beginners to regular good dancers didn’t had practice partner either. Unless they were a couple already or dating another dancer. The best I have seen is people partner with someone for workshops so that they have a partner and don’t need to switch. In workshops imbalance can sometimes lead to not having a partner till instructors ask people to switch. Half of the tango instructors unlike in other dances forget or are bad at announcing switching in timely manner.
This has been the same for me and many others. And I grew up in a large tango scene and probably one of the biggest outside of BsAs. I have found dancers lament about inability to find right partner for practicing. Practicing takes dedication and time commitment in addition to everything else going on in life. The hours of practice should also work for both partners assuming you do find a right partner. Therefore odds of someone able to find a right partner for regular practice is very low. Unless you are in university or army base or similar kind of close community.
Your experience is very common to most tango dancers I suspect.
Advantage of bigger scene is lot of different people to dance with. Whether at milongas or practicalongas. Small town can’t have that advanatge. But I assume smaller community might mean everyone is familiar and friendly with each other.
I didn’t take any private lessons till after I was fairly proficient in dancing socially. That would be about ten years after I started dancing tango. So far I have taken only half a dozen privates. That spread out over four or five years. I had prepaid for dozen privates because I liked the instructor and they were right ones for me. Then I started traveling. After that they were traveling. The instructor was more anxious that I finish my package of privates since I had paid them 5-6 years back. Then Covid happened.
What did helped was specific targeted group classes. And selectively choosing workshop that I thought addressed my needs. Many of the group classes at critical time in my had handful of students. That meant it was like a semi private. With total 6 or 8 students there is a lot of opportunity to get individual feedback. Luckily I am quick at learning what’s taught in the class. I am too lazy to practice is systematically later. I make up for it by slowly adding those elements when I am dancing at milongas.
It is good to be taught that. It makes you a good dancer. But he should have also focused on getting you to dance. In sports analogy that is like spending all the time doing drills without ever having a chance to actually play the game.
I think each person’s journey is uniquely frustrating in its own way. Only a few have a smooth sailing into tango. One of my friends who coaxed me into taking her to tango was one such. She was naturally gifted in following. She had background in other partner dancing. I had already been dancing tango for more than 6 years by that time and she had me as a regular partner. All that combined with being young, good looking and very nice to everyone meant she got constantly asked by men. We never danced more than a couple of tandas together when out. In a couple of months she was already dancing at a level of a follower who has been dancing for one year. In less than six months she improved to equivalent of a follower dancing for a couple of years or little more. All that without too much practice and may be a lesson once every two weeks. I used to tell her that she had no idea how painless her entry into tango was.
That’s a hallmark of a good follower. If the lead is clear then to be able to execute what hasn’t been seen before.
So, not very frustrating experience at milongas then
The risk is after investing all that time just when they are compatible they no longer want to practice or dance with you.
A tango friend of mine was very dedicated to becoming good from early days. He also found partners to practice with. Since early days at least three ladies that practiced with him to get better, stopped not only practicing but also dancing with him at milongas. Without any explanation. And that kept motivating him to get better so he could show those that slighted him. I would tell him desire to get better is good but don’t do it as a form of revenge. He is not the type to misbehave with anyone. Other followers feel that he got used by those two or three ladies. He is very low key and very introvert. He has a brooding type of personality and carries himself like world’s weight is on his shoulders. He is a young fellow, in late twenties when he starting dancing tango. Eventually in a short time he developed fast and did become a really good dancer. He put in a lot of work taking a lot of workshops. Then after a tango break up and other loss in life that coincided with it, he disappeared from the scene. He only comes out dancing once in a few months now.
Indeed! Counting your blessings
TTanguero
Forum Master
That's the thing: you were learning to follow, while the followers in the group class were learning steps.
I've always thought the way group classes are taught is spectacularly dumb, because the followers know what they are supposed to do, so will do it regardless of the lead. The result is that the leaders have no idea whether or not they can actually lead any of it.
I've literally done one group class where the teachers separated the leaders and followers. The followers were taken to the opposite end of the (long) room to be taught technique relevant to the topic (but had no idea what they were about to be led).