A bad practice partner is better than no partner?
- Thread starter OthinkingDesign
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WhiskeyPapa
Well-Known Member
This is so true…
I am not God’s gift to tango but I work hard at improving. My partner is far more advanced than i am (to the point she can literally dance every single tanda at a milonga if she desires) and we average 10-12 / hours a week of highly structured practice—
I am not that good… nevertheless, I often dance with new/visiting/sitting followers. Sometimes it’s great—the elderly visitor from out of town dances gloriously well—but often it’s blasted hard work!
Followers who complain they don’t get dances don’t realize how much effort the Lead has to put into giving them a good time. I understand that being led by an inexperienced or arrogant lead can be awful… But leading followers who don’t train regularly gets to be a chore. If she’s new, ok, but you want to see work and improvement. Can’t I have something back from you? There are plenty of delusional Leads, but I believe there are more delusional followers. This is because a bad Lead cannot create a good dance even with a good follower. But a good lead can create a decent dance with a poor follower. She will think it was her doing and wonder why he doesn’t keep asking her, become embittered with tango and leave.
Men’s incompetence is inescapably visible. That is less true for followers (at least to themselves).
FWIW do not consider myself a good dancer, but I am conscientious. Call it snobbery if you like, but after a point you really do want to dance with followers who know what they’re doing.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
I feel the same way about myself:
Am I amazing? Probably not.
Am I at least not terrible. I like to think so.
My defining feature, though, is that I work intensively with a coach, make an effort to get to prácticas, and read, write, listen, and talk about tango and tango music on a deeply theoretical level whenever given the smallest opening. I want to be the best partner I can be, even if I'm not one of the guys everybody adores in YouTube videos.
My life and dance partner is somewhat less advanced than I am, as she started 2 years after me and has a chronic health condition that drastically limits her energy level and thus her ability to dance. On a typical week, I get in a coaching session, a práctica, and at least three milongas (total 12-16 hours); on some weeks, I manage a coaching session and some combination of up to eight prácticas and milongas (my record is something like 32 hours). My partner generally manages a coaching session and a práctica or a milonga; on some weeks, make that a coaching session and a práctica and a milonga.
So, while I work hard to dance with my life partner, my focus overall is on dancing with lots of partners, ideally ones who dance somewhat like I do.
Yes.
On Tuesday evening, I danced with 10 different women. One was a lifelong dancer who has lots of natural talent, while another was the daughter of one of our local tango-lineage families, who has lots of training; I danced with them to be able to dare to dance whatever I wanted. Four were absolutely average dancers for here; I danced with them because I could do so with confidence even if I couldn't take risks. Two were long-term dancers who'd given up lessons years ago; I danced with them because I've known them for a long time. Two were beginners (one of them another of my coach's students); I danced with them to build community.
Those last four were definitely hard work.
The hostess on Tuesday actually asked me about this. She saw that I had to work hard to compensate for some of my partners that evening, and wanted to know why I'd do that. Interestingly, the less-advanced partners all said they found it "easy to dance with me" . . . which is because instead of being 50/50, the effort was closer to 90/10, with me putting in the 90.
I can't disagree. I consider myself "a leader who has been coached nonstop for over a decade and who's approaching the 10,000-hour mark in total milonga-práctica-instructional time." Early on, a lot of those hours were at a tango studio accompanying less advanced dancers for 20+ hours/week. I definitely know how to dance with almost anyone. The question is whether I want to . . . I can still feel those less advanced followers from two days ago in my shoulders, despite maximum attention to my own health and safety.
It's pretty obvious when followers are unstable, not dissociating properly, having poor posture etc. Unfortunately the #1 problem for me is people doing uncomfortable things with their arms, which isn't necessarily as visible because it can be a partner specific thing
WhiskeyPapa
Well-Known Member
If you’re serious about tango, this is probably the right way, especially for Leads. It’s also totally unrealistic.
A good compromise might be 6 months of training for a Follower before her first Milonga and 12 months for a Lead (God help the poor women who accept his cabeceo! I am full of gratitude to the women who danced with me at the beginning—I believe those good deeds shaved many years off their time in purgatory!)
Many followers complain about ageism… and the pretty young thing phenomenon. I can’t help thinking—how well do you dance? I will pick an older woman who dances well over a pretty girl who can’t. Most decent male social dancers I know feel the same way.
TTanguero
Forum Master
Me too, but we have to remember we're not typical of the tango world as a whole. Men of a Certain Age choosing beginner PYTs over excellent older followers is very much a real phenomenon.
WhiskeyPapa
Well-Known Member
What an accurate observation!
TTanguero
Forum Master
In London, this is endemic.
Here is the key question. Do the leaders who dance select partners based on skills outnumber those who prioritize PYT? In my locale the answer is yes. A few other places on short visits my observation is the same. The guys prioritizing PYTs whose skills aren’t great, are always a small minority.
Now if we talk about PYT with good skills, they will be always in demand by men of all ages.
opendoor
Forum Master
I think that's too generalized. The reserved and honorable dancers those with the small steps are not immediately victims. They are made up of very different groups. There are true masters and experts among them, masters of minimalism and floor craft. But there also are the unteachable ones who have stopped at beginner level. Anyone who prefers flashy moves and dances with Les Belles du Bal will respect the humble dancer, but not the one with little talent. Experts recognize each other regardless of style and attitude.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
It's what I did. Classes and prácticas for almost five years. Hardly went to a milonga during that period except for the outdoor venues. I largely focused on basics and walking throughout that period. That and posture and embrace. I didn't mind. I had a good time at most of the prácticas.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
There are also quite logical and practical reasons for this in many (not all!) cases. Younger dancers (young is relative here) are often lighter and more nimble than older. I believe the weight/size differential does matter. I like to dance with women about my height and lighter in weight. I'm about 134 pounds. I'd say most of the women over 50 I dance with outweigh me, sometimes significantly. Those closer to 30 are often about 120-125. It is, after all, a physical endeavor involving bodies in motion. Mass and inertia matter. I've also danced with a lot of heavier followers who are excellent dancers and whose weight is not a factor, but there are not many of them who can make themselves "light." There are thin, older women, of course, and I love dancing with them but not all that many of them.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
I really dislike dancing behind those guys.
OthinkingDesign
Active Member
Behind them is far worse than having them BEHIND YOU, in my opinion.
I agree with this. The last line especially. I may tend to be on the minimalist end in how number of figures or variations. I am maximalist in how much distance I cover or how dynamic my dance is.
The leaders who ahead of me that I get most bothered by are the unreachable ones. Or those that haven’t figured out that if their back step is six inches shorter, they won’t close up space between us when I haven’t moved an inch forward. Or who open their partner too much when doing a molinete or any turn where the partner is moving against the line of dance.
If I am sandwiched between two flashy dancers who are good at what they do, I have no problems. I can move fast, slow, turn, etc to keep equidistant space or pace. In other words irrespective of style the good dancers have a predictable presence in space or time. That’s one of most important yardstick of skills to me.