A good sylabus for close embrace Tango learning

AndaBien said:
Mario, teaching and dancing are different activities. You will be a beginner teacher and you'll make some mistakes. Approach your teaching with the attitude of learning how to do it. I find in teaching tango it's useful to have the idea that you are not an authority, but are assisting your students to find the dance.

I'm going to open up a new thread with my notes for teaching tango. Perhaps we'll get some good discussion about learning to teach tango.
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I think this happen to be a good attitude for any teacher, no matter how long they have been teaching. I always appreciate a little humility from a teacher when I go to a class.
 
Mario7 said:
If she pulls me off balance, or in someway makes it difficult, I tell her and she has already been asked to tell me if I do the same. Is that 'teaching'?...I'm just asking for ideas here on a process...what comes before what and what would you do first, and second, and third? Capice?
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The problem arises when you tell her she is pulling you off balance, but you have no idea what she needs to do differently in order to stop pulling you off balance. Or when she pulls you off balance and you are not aware of what you did that affected what she did that resulted in her pulling and you being off balance.

I'm not saying "Don't do it", I'm just trying to get across that often people are aware of the result of a problem and think it is the problem itself.

I learned this in skating.. a casual observer says "He fell on that jump". Someone who's watched more skating will say "He fell because he was tilted in the air". A skater might say "He was tilted because he didn't place his pick correctly for the take off".

And a coach will say "His shoulders weren't in the correct alignment to his hips on the entry edge, resulting in a bad placement on the backpick, so that he ended up tilted outside the circle in the air, and landed short of the rotation... but he still could have salvaged it if he'd checked his right shoulder back hard on the landing and was stronger and better conditioned to begin with"

Get my drift?

So by all means, practice with the person. But keep an open mind as to where the problems originate. Its very likely that what you think is a problem, is actually only a RESULT of a problem.
 
dchester said:
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I have a few thoughts.
1) What you needed to know as a leader and how you learned it (when starting out), may not be an exact match for what the follower needs to know and how.
2) I agree with most of what Andabien said, but don't think the cross has to wait until later, IMO.
3) Go for it!!! (BTW, let us know how it goes, and what you learn as well along the way).
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Yes.

When I first started "teaching", I taught only with my partner (let's call it "assisting, not "teaching") and I only "taught" the followers. However, I took the opportunity to learn what my partner was telling and showing leaders along with the student leaders. Eventually I was able to teach on my own, but not before I had actually learned a fair amount about the leader's part and the body mechanics of what they needed to do beyond the steps they take.

I also approached other teachers who were short of leaders in their class, and asked to fill in as a leader in exchange for coming as an experienced follower to classes that were short followers. This way I got free instruction as a leader in one class by attending lower level classes where my following skill would be helpful to the leaders.

I attended some fluctuating beginner classes for free with the understanding that I would do whichever role was needed that day. That meant I sometimes got instruction as a leader, and sometimes I was doing the follower part (and getting no instruction) in order to help out the balance. The advantage to doing this was that being an advanced follower, even when I was there to follow, I was able to pay attention to what was being taught to leaders because I already knew what was being taught to the followers.

Only after all this could I combine my knowledge of what it felt like to be led properly with what I knew about leading to be able to teach leaders anything really useful on my own.
 
Lui said:
Teaching a female beginner:

Important points to me are:

  • The separation of of stepping action and finally weight transfer..
  • The connection between the partners: the frame of embrace. Accept the lead by freezing your elbow and shoulder joints. Hold tension in the right part of your body to have your feet moved by the lead. How not feel like Frankenstein Monster while doing this.
  • The introduction into keeping the free leg relaxed as well as all other “unused” body parts, even when holding tension in other areas to accept the lead.
  • Developing a trust into the lead and the leader (he should be able to earn it btw).
  • Develop her feeling for her posture and balance.
  • Giving her a good feeling ;)
.
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These are all good points, but you left out what I think is one of the most important fundamentals to be taught early... the ability to walk backwards while maintaining a forward intention or pressure. To put it simply, leaders don't learn this very early on (and some never do!) Its a vital part of tango following, because anything else results in the follower repeatedly falling/pulling backwards away from the leader, as well as stepping back instead of crossing front in certain leads to crusada. Its really hard to lead someone to cross in front when they are falling back.

Crusada isn't all that "advanced" for followers... if her posture is correct and its led well, she can't NOT cross.
 
bastet said:
Perhaps you may have space you could offer her for teaching private lessons? Maybe y'all could team up and that may be a way for you to learn the things you don't currently have? Then perhaps everyone would win.
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Good idea... Mario you obviously have a space that you are practicing in... why not ask this teacher to give the two of you a private? (and pay attention to what the teacher says to the follower!)
 
Zoopsia59 said:
To be blunt, I think this situation may work out well for YOU, but it is not in her best interests at all unless she maintains a good schedule of instruction with another teacher who has a solid grasp of the technique of following. Then she can bring what she is learning together with what you already know and work together on it with you giving consideration to her input as well as her giving consideration to yours. That's what a "practice partner" is (but I think you DO know that!)
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Cannot agree more.
 
I agree.

Disclaimer:
I am not saying that anything I am saying is directed specifically at Mario except the last paragraph. This is my own observation of what I have seen over several years.

I think there is a certain point that the majority of people come to, it might be after 5 weeks, it might be after 3 years when people say:"you are doing well you are very good!" what they mean is "you are very good for someone who has been dancing for x months/years compared to the people who have been dancing once a week or less for x months/years or even x+y months/years.".

At this point a lot of people think they know enough to teach whether it's on the dance floor, I like to think of the beginner who told Zoops or Bastet (massive apologies I can't remember which of you it is!) that they were doing ochos wrong; or people in London who after a very short time, maybe 2 or 3 years, have commercially set up as teachers, but are a bit of joke amongst some more experienced dancers.

I have had really crap dancers give me "dance floor teaching" in the last month or so, I know that what they are saying is not right, they are trying to teach me how to compensate for issues with their lead or balance, they genuinely think they are helping me. I will go along with this to a degree to be nice (and so that they have an enjoyable dance as it is a milonga not a practica), but not when it compromises my safety. I get the feeling it is a very easy trap to fall into, and unless one has had incredibly tough teachers/people to dance with at milongas one does not know that one is maybe at least 50% of the reason it's not working.


Specifically for Mario:
I think the suggestion that you arrange a private lesson and then you practice the points learned in the lesson over a few sessions and give each other peer feedback, i.e. both of your feedback is equally valid and no one is judged to be an authority over the other, is a good and useful one.
A total newcomer to any field can have insight that can only be found at a distance.
 
Shandy said:
Never under-estimate the power of not knowing what you don't know.

c. Rarely have I come across a lead of that level of experience who understands the mechanics of the followers part.
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Just needed to be posted again, and hopefully taken to heart.
 
Well, the one and only woman tango teacher has just left town until next year.
So, my dance partner is going to have to figure it out with my help..anyway, we discuss each session at the beginning and at the end and so far, we are both happy each day. I have already mentioned that we are bound to hit a plateau sometime and 'feel' like we are not making progress..but not yet. We always have something that we can point to each day as a new win.
So, any more ideas about what we can do is helpful....about what we can't do is something that we will discover soon enough.
 
Mario7 said:
.. the fact that I've been dancing (and working at it) for 2 1/2 years and she has for two weeks... Also, the fact that I'm looking for a practice partner and she's looking to learn the dance.. added to this is that fact that her friend is a Tango instructor (She) and when she saw my other partner dance with me (after 4 weeks from beginning) she advised her friend to go work with me.

..how's that?
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Sounds great. Her teaching you would undoubtedly be less counter-intuitive.
Thinking ahead my fear is that once she's got all your knowledge she will leave you for an even more advanced leader.
 
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