Abrazo - The Embrace

[JohnEm]

Since some people insist there is NEVER any weight sharing and that it's always an illusion, then no, you're still not safe with that question... sorry

Subliminal's good explanation doesn't involve any weight sharing,
which I regard as a misleading description, but it does involve
counter-weighting (by the wall in that case). In initiating movement
the leader provides a horizontal force but no weight. Apilado loosely
meaning "piled up" describes how it looks not how it is.

It is also true that within that apilado embrace the visual lean changes,
the distances between the feet change, the connection changes all
according to the movement (or none) at the time and according to the
variation in forces provided by both partners. It's part of the skill,
the intuitive feeling, all developed with practice rather than learned
from teaching or, in this case, from the written word.

 

[bordertangoman]

I think at some point a person has to become their own self as a dancer, and stop letting other people tell them who or how that should be. I think dancing tango well requires a certain amount certainty and confidence on the floor.

@Ampster; you old romantic you! but I like the poem, hope you dont mind I've put it on FB.

I agree Andabien, I had a horrible private lesson which suggested I change things which I had been taught by other teachers..one suggestion was i need a firmer embrace and apply about 3lbs of pressure with my right arm against the womans back. I'm a light lead but that never has been a problem, even a professional Argentine dancer who danced with me who was clearly used to strong leading met me half way in the space of a tanda.

But certainty and confidence I lack not- and groundedness.

 

[bordertangoman]

Subliminal's good explanation doesn't involve any weight sharing,
which I regard as a misleading description, but it does involve
counter-weighting (by the wall in that case). In initiating movement
the leader provides a horizontal force but no weight. Apilado loosely
meaning "piled up" describes how it looks not how it is.

It is also true that within that apilado embrace the visual lean changes,
the distances between the feet change, the connection changes all
according to the movement (or none) at the time and according to the
variation in forces provided by both partners. It's part of the skill,
the intuitive feeling, all developed with practice rather than learned
from teaching or, in this case, from the written word.

I ask people to give about 10% of their weight to their partner; since there is no way of measuring this or estimating what 10% of your weight is, but as an instruction it works and keeps the close embrace connection solid.

 

[bordertangoman]

"how does the amount of weight sharing change in various types of embrace"

My experience; with slender and/or small ladies I keep almost all of my weight to myself,
with ladies more than 6" taller than me, I often opt for a more open embrace so they get my lead through their hand on my shoulder. Its partly a navigational issue.For instance one lady who I can dance with close embrace in blues I prefer to keep open in tango.
tall ladies with large breasts make me feel like I'm climbing a cliff overhang, so I might opt for a V embrace (No jokes about not being able to hear the music please ) or open.

My favoured embrace is the "shirt buttons", as described by Korey, so you get a full connection from the navel upwards. This works best with ladies roughly the same height as me, say 6" either way, then the amount of weight sharing just sorts itself out with whatever we both feel comfortable with.

 

[opendoor]

..annoying is that my posture and connection was considered fine until the last year or so, and now I'm supposed to change it .. with the new rash of teachers coming to town.... they correct my posture as though it's wrong.

Take it easy Zoops, there´s nothing less educated around like tango teachers (very often, anyway, and all teachers in this forum excepted). You have to tell them what you want to learn, not the other way round. Figure out your own topics, aims and goals clearly. Define your own syllabus and your own style, dont follow someone else´s style if you dont feel comfortable with it. Sometimes teachers try to get along by discredid other teachers and styles.

I find this parallel, upright, very close but no chest pressure embrace quite awkward and disconnected..

Is this not toughing part may be due to didactical grounds? Apilado is the most complicated hold, and these teachers may be trying to keep the guys from dancing bended forward??

 

[JohnEm]

I ask people to give about 10% of their weight to their partner; since there is no way of measuring this or estimating what 10% of your weight is, but as an instruction it works and keeps the close embrace connection solid.

As you say there is no way to work out how to apply 10% of your weight
as a forward force at the chest. I have this picture of you with some
electronic scales planted on the wall with your chest planted on the scales!
If you can read the display you're a contortionist. No, I haven't tried it!

But you can easily try placing some scales near the wall and weigh yourself
upright or even leaning forward a little but not touching the wall. Now reset
and weigh yourself again but this time with you leaning and connecting with
the wall at your chest. Your weight will be no different as all your weight
is still loaded onto the scales.

 

[Peaches]

OMG. Trust. Embrace is trust.

Okay. So here's a (naive but well-meaning) question. How much of it is illusion and how much is really being dependent on your partner to take part of your weight? And does it vary by type of embrace?

Does that make sense? Like, for example, when I'm doing dips, much of the time, I'm supporting all of my own weight, even though, from the outside, it looks like I'm not. There's a point of connection between me and a partner and we counter-balance each other around that point. But I'm not holding him up and he's not holding me.

Hmm... pondering.

Zoo is spot on the money with this one--you're not going to get consensus. I know it's one of those things that has been argued about here before.

IME...it depends. (Gotta love sitting on fences!)

In some embraces each dancer is always* "on their own axis", so any lean is an illusion*. In one sort of embrace (parallel shoulders), both leaders and followers can either be "on their own axis" or not, in which case the lean is either an illusion, or it is very real. (Granted, the amount of lean it looks like your seeing could be an illusion. Even when I'm not on my own axis it isn't a huge lean at all. Does that make sense?) I consider this the difference between dancing milonguero-style (parallel shoulders, on own axis) and dancing apilado (parallel shoulders, off axis).

However, some people don't believe that it is ever possible to dance off your own axis.

*Except for some very specific moves which I won't get into here.

 

[Dave Bailey]

rash of teachers

I always wondered what the correct plural term was.

 

[Dave Bailey]

Recently I heard a teacher here who does nuevo (quite well, I should add) say that there is another way to do many moves (ie: more milonguero) but it is not the "current" way.

When you think about the way fundamental movements are done, I think it makes sense than these movements will be done differently in close to open embrace, simply because the mechanics are different.

For example, ochos - referring to the "milonguero ochos" we discussed a while back. To me, it makes sense that in a very close embrace, follower's should sacrifice dissociation in favour of a continuous connection, otherwise you end up with 1-boob connection all the time.

 

[AndaBien]

I always wondered what the correct plural term was.

School.

 

[JohnEm]

For example, ochos - referring to the "milonguero ochos" we discussed a while back. To me, it makes sense that in a very close embrace, follower's should sacrifice dissociation in favour of a continuous connection, otherwise you end up with 1-boob connection all the time.

Have you got that right?

In my experience disassociation is required to maintain the connection
allowing the pelvis to rotate yet maintaining the even chest connection.
The 1-boob phenomenon is because either the follower over steps the ocho
or because she doesn't or cannot dissociate so she ends up rolling around
the man's chest. Sometimes a leader may cause that effect himself by
leading something that requires a degree of his own chest rotation
yet he doesn't provide it. And yes, guilty as charged M'Lud.

 

[dchester]

OMG. Trust. Embrace is trust.

Okay. So here's a (naive but well-meaning) question. How much of it is illusion and how much is really being dependent on your partner to take part of your weight? And does it vary by type of embrace?

Does that make sense? Like, for example, when I'm doing dips, much of the time, I'm supporting all of my own weight, even though, from the outside, it looks like I'm not. There's a point of connection between me and a partner and we counter-balance each other around that point. But I'm not holding him up and he's not holding me.

Hmm... pondering.

The reality is, it varies. It is nothing more than a personal preference. In a VU style class I took, they taught to do it as an illusion (although they were clear that it was just for that particular style). In some classes (or styles) you actually do share weight (or however you want to call it).

My preference is to share some weight, but it's just a preference. Unfortunately, a fair number of teachers will claim that their preference is a rule.

Generally speaking, people who are more into the steps will want less (or no) pressure, while people who are into the connection tend to want some pressure (or weight sharing).

This is one of the things about tango, that can cause good dancers to be incompatible with each other (unless they can adapt to other possibilities), as different people have different styles, preferences, and philosophies about how things work in tango.

 

[bordertangoman]

I always wondered what the correct plural term was.

before the world went PC it was a 'Haze' or 'Fug' as that's what staffrooms were like

This is one of the things about tango, that can cause good dancers to be incompatible with each other (unless they can adapt to other possibilities), as different people have different styles, preferences, and philosophies about how things work in tango.

one of the milongas I go to occasionally has gone very On-Your-Axis-Salon and as a consequence they have become less enjoyable to dance with. Its as if they're afraid of doing anything 'against the rules' or maybe stiffness in the body has a consequential mental inflexibilty effect?

 

[Peaches]

one of the milongas I go to occasionally has gone very On-Your-Axis-Salon and as a consequence they have become less enjoyable to dance with. Its as if they're afraid of doing anything 'against the rules' or maybe stiffness in the body has a consequential mental inflexibilty effect?

Is it specifically because you dislike it when both dancers are on their axis? Or because they have becme stiff? Or because the amount of pressure through the connection isn't as much (the dancing very very close but barely touching sort of phenomenon)?

I wonder, because I tend to dance with a lot of pressure in any sort of close embrace (unless I'm dancing with a guy who will back off from that pressure). Even when I'm on my own axis, I press pretty hard, comparatively speaking. I love it when a guy returns that/makes it possible. Granted, it comes and goes--some nights are good nights and others are not. But when it's a good night, and I can get that good solid (heavy) connection...THOSE are the nights that I get compliments on my connection. I'll take that.

ETA (because I'm in the middle of a bunch of things right now, and apparently not doing any of them well--forgot my point in this post, just deleted a subfolder which needed to be restored): Point is, I don't see that on-you-axis-Salon style brings about stiffness, nor does it bring about light connection/lack of connection. Sounds like there is something else going on.

 

[dchester]

Is it specifically because you dislike it when both dancers are on their axis? Or because they have becme stiff? Or because the amount of pressure through the connection isn't as much (the dancing very very close but barely touching sort of phenomenon)?

I wonder, because I tend to dance with a lot of pressure in any sort of close embrace (unless I'm dancing with a guy who will back off from that pressure). Even when I'm on my own axis, I press pretty hard, comparatively speaking. I love it when a guy returns that/makes it possible. Granted, it comes and goes--some nights are good nights and others are not. But when it's a good night, and I can get that good solid (heavy) connection...THOSE are the nights that I get compliments on my connection. I'll take that.

So, will you be traveling to New England anytime soon?