Abrazo - The Embrace

[Dave Bailey]

The "milonguero ochos" that DB was referring to are crossing ochos, not pivoting ochos. The ocho becomes a side step that crosses either in front or behind. If they travel backwards, they need to cross less and become more of a backstep. If they don't travel, they have to cross quite a bit. In neither case, is any dissasociating required.

Yep. Those are the babies. Although "milonguero ochos" <> "ochos in close embrace", as ochos in close embrace still have some dissociation.

Whereas milonguero ochos will go wrong if you dissociate.

I'm beginning to really like milonguero ochos, if only because they're such a challenge for both the leader and follower - they require very subtle movements from the leader and very good listening (and free leg movement) for the follower.

 

[Dave Bailey]

I agree with your disagree Zoopsia.

I agree with... hold on, I'm lost now...

Anyway:

The are ochos where I am not led any dissociation at all and I cross behind and displace my front leg (basically a very small back volcada at that point) so I can cross in tight under myself. I can actually walk myself forwards from the back side when I do this and often use it as an exercize to get followers to learn to release their standing leg in a back crossing ocho because a lot of them have problems with that which is why most people find this type of ocho difficult.

Yep, precisely.

 

[bordertangoman]

But you are narrowly considering dissociation only as a separate rotation
of the upper body to face a different direction from the pelvis whereas
I was considering dissociation to be the separation of movement of the
pelvis and the upper body. Walking comfortably outside and maintaining
the embrace requires dissociation..

that's pretty pedantic; are you saying that pelvis moves independently of the chest or the other way around?

So I was considering the practicality of the dance and its movements
though I can accept that it is more natural in normal life to move the
pelvis separately from the upper body than to move the chest/shoulders
specifically and separately from the pelvis. . ..

not really, natural walking usually involves contrabody motion

In my experience your more typically narrow approach, which I had forgotten
I'd heard in lessons, tends to engage people's brains and make the whole
effort rather mechanical. Too much thinking!

You can still disagree if you like.

.[/QUOTE]

I certainly do disagree..it isnt a narrow approach. Although I frown on the use of the term dissociation to describe what is just a twist of the body for the follower, although I accept its a common usage in tango circles*

*In my use of the term only leaders disscociate as they have to make weight changes that the follower doesnt feel.

 

[AndaBien]

...I'm beginning to really like milonguero ochos, if only because they're such a challenge for both the leader and follower - they require very subtle movements from the leader and very good listening (and free leg movement) for the follower.

There's the reason I enjoy apilado so much. Not for the sake of the challenge, but for potential for subtle nuance and expression. Did you know you can actually tell a joke using forward ochos?

 

[Peaches]

Dissociation to describe a leader's weight changing that goes unfelt by the follower...never heard that definition before. Yay. More confusion.

 

[Peaches]

Within the embrace, in a back cross you are in that position with the pelvis turned to face a different direction than the chest.

Not necessarily. In a pivoting ocho (back or otherwise), there is dissociation (twisting) going on, certainly. But for milonguero ochos, then no. The feeling with milonguero (crossing) ochos is of the hips staying parallel to the leader, but with one side or the other "sinking" or lowering as you stretch the side of the body to take that back/side step with the free leg.

But you are narrowly considering dissociation only as a separate rotation of the upper body to face a different direction from the pelvis whereas I was considering dissociation to be the separation of movement of the pelvis and the upper body. Walking comfortably outside and maintaining
the embrace requires dissociation.

This sounds like two different concepts going on. If you're considering dissociation to be the separation of movement between the pelvis and upper body, then that happens all the time. Obviously. There is no way to walk and move the legs and hips while maintaining a smooth, constant contact in the embrace without it. I have never heard this use/definition of "dissociation". When talking about walking comfortably outside (meaning outside partner? as opposed to in line?), then yes, you have to use dissociation...of the rotational sort.

 

[bordertangoman]

Dissociation to describe a leader's weight changing that goes unfelt by the follower...never heard that definition before. Yay. More confusion.

it is an essential part of cross-system; the only terminology I've found to describe it is :-

Contrapaso :Weight change used to switch between parallel and cross system of walking.

 

[Peaches]

it is an essential part of cross-system; the only terminology I've found to describe it is :-

Contrapaso :Weight change used to switch between parallel and cross system of walking.

I don't disagree--the man being able to change weight without the woman feeling it is integral to AT, not just the cross system. It gets used all the time. I just have never heard the term "dissociation" used to describe it. I have always heard "dissociation" used to describe "twisting", aka rotating the hips and shoulders independently of one another.

 

[Dave Bailey]

There's the reason I enjoy apilado so much. Not for the sake of the challenge, but for potential for subtle nuance and expression.

I don't think it's actually necessary to dance apilado to do milonguero ochos. But it's certainly easier.

Did you know you can actually tell a joke using forward ochos?

Does it involve an Englishman, an American and an Argeninian walking into a bar?

 

[Dave Bailey]

Not necessarily. In a pivoting ocho (back or otherwise), there is dissociation (twisting) going on, certainly. But for milonguero ochos, then no. The feeling with milonguero (crossing) ochos is of the hips staying parallel to the leader, but with one side or the other "sinking" or lowering as you stretch the side of the body to take that back/side step with the free leg.

To be fair, I was trying to describe this to a teacher on Tuesday, and she thought I was describing ochos in close embrace, so it's not like the concept's an easy one to grasp.

 

[JohnEm]

that's pretty pedantic; are you saying that pelvis moves independently of the chest or the other way around?

I'm actually saying it's either - it's an intended separation, sometimes of
the direction of the pelvis from the chest or the other way round. I suspect
it may be what some teach as an isolation though I have no experience.

not really, natural walking usually involves contrabody motion

You've been to D&M workshops? But yes but that isn't normally regarded
as dissociation as it's a whole body torsion with no purposeful isolation.

I certainly do disagree..it isnt a narrow approach. Although I frown on the use of the term dissociation to describe what is just a twist of the body for the follower, although I accept its a common usage in tango circles*

And quite a lot of followers don't seem to be able to do in dance what
they normally make use of to a lesser extent in normal non-dance life.

*In my use of the term only leaders disscociate as they have to make weight changes that the follower doesnt feel.

I wouldn't use dissociation to describe that, probably confusion!

 

[Peaches]

To be fair, I was trying to describe this to a teacher on Tuesday, and she thought I was describing ochos in close embrace, so it's not like the concept's an easy one to grasp.

And it not necessarily so easy to do either, depending on how much flexibility one does or doesn't have. I remember one private lesson I had where we worked for a good while on sinking the hip of the free leg. Just crossing back ochos, in open position, with the teacher's hands on my hips encouraging me to stretch and sink the free hip. I know as a result of that that I am able to sink my left hip more easily than my right...at least until I get good and warmed up.

(One thing I miss from my lessons is the chance, once every two weeks, to get my muscles really warm and flexible. It always felt so good to be able to crack my back again finally--something I can't really do anymore unless my muscles are very warmed up, just because my back has gotten so stiff in the last couple of years. Sigh.)

ETA: Another thing which just occurred to me... It can take a while to realize that the hips can be free enough to really do that. So often it's easy to think about movement coming from the legs...maybe from the hips downward. But for these ochos to work (and so many other things as well--like just good walking) the movement really needs to come from the ribcage all the way on down. So you've kind of got competing ideas of keeping your core toned (not going all floppy and swaybacked, yada yada), but also loosening your sides and the muscles in your lower back and pelvis and whatnot in order to get that movement in the lower back/hips. When I manage to get things all together, I just keep thinking of something another D-F person said in the BR forum: her teacher telling her (in the midst of a Standard lesson) to "pee all over the floor". Sounds strange, and I had no clue what was meant by that...and then I learned how to really move from the ribcage, and to relax the muscles in my hips and pelvis and whatnot...and damned if the idea of peeing all over the floor didn't start to make sense. But that takes time. But...oh, when it comes together and you feel that looseness and freedom through your body...everything transforms. Walking feels completely and utterly different...and divine. So feminine, so powerful.

 

[ant]

*In my use of the term only leaders disscociate as they have to make weight changes that the follower doesnt feel.

BTM have you got the bold bit the right way round? And by that I mean the implication that the leader dissociates to make a weight change.

I can think of situations where I dissociate in order to lead a step or weight change by the follower without any step or weight change myself but I can't think of any situation where I need to dissociate in order to weight change for myself only.

 

[bordertangoman]

BTM have you got the bold bit the right way round? And by that I mean the implication that the leader dissociates to make a weight change.

I can think of situations where I dissociate in order to lead a step or weight change by the follower without any step or weight change myself but I can't think of any situation where I need to dissociate in order to weight change for myself only.

so how would you make a weight change that was one that the follower didnt follow?

 

[dchester]

dissociation in tango = what?

It's a fancy word for twisting.