Active Following

[bastet]

That's ok, I suspect a lot of leads may view surrender in the "she does only what I ask" terminology (though she can still do that and dance actively, as Anda says).

I may be off the deep end (not an impossibility!), or it may be more follower related that "surrender" may be more a mental thing, or a state of mind. Or it could be the same thing, viewed from another perspective.

 

[Mario7]

"
At a recent festival I danced with a apilado dancer from out of town. His embrace was warm and inviting. I wanted to be invited. We felt like we had one single arm wrapping around us, completely encircled and we both worked together to keep that feeling going. It was really lovely. That's what I would consider "surrendering" and letting the embrace take the place of importance in the dance..

This is soooo beautiful! If I only read a post like this once a year, it will be enough to keep me coming back for more..:cheers:
..and 'think positive', I've changed my signature.:cowboy:

 

[dchester]

That's ok, I suspect a lot of leads may view surrender in the "she does only what I ask" terminology (though she can do that dancing actively, as Anda says).

I think part of surrendering, is for the follower to match the mood and intensity of the leader. That may fall into the active following, as you define it.

I may be off the deep end, or it may be more follower related that "surrender" may be more a mental thing, or a state of mind.

You may be right about that. For me, to get to that state of serenity (or bliss), that's one of the attributes I need from the follower. It reduces the amount of thinking I need to do.


I suspect that sometimes the disconnect occurs when both partners are dancing to their perceptions about the mood and intensity of the music, but they have different opinions on what the music is moving them to do (and they are not taking each other into account).

 

[bordertangoman]

This is soooo beautiful! If I only read a post like this once a year, it will be enough to keep me coming back for more..:cheers:
..and 'think positive', I've changed my signature.:cowboy:

reminds of that Japanese woman with the octopus

 

[opendoor]

please explain !!

 

[ant]

In my view, in a good embrace, we surrender to each other. We feel a part of each other.

At a recent festival I danced with a apilado dancer from out of town. His embrace was warm and inviting. I wanted to be invited. We felt like we had one single arm wrapping around us, completely encircled and we both worked together to keep that feeling going. It was really lovely. That's what I would consider "surrendering" and letting the embrace take the place of importance in the dance.

The way you have put it above is exactly how I took it to mean. a beautiful dance between two people hearing the music in the same way and allowing the music to move them together.

People seem to be reading the word surrender and automatically equate it with "auotomaton" for the follower, "dead weight", wanting to be moved and pushed around every step of the way. That is how I am reading people's explanation of what they think "surrender" means. And to me, it's more a mental thing, and my ability to do this thing that I think of as trying to become one with them very dependent on the leader's attitude and personality. Snotty, arrogant, overbearing leader? Not going to get "surrender" from me.

I would be of exactly the same mindset as you.

I won't give more than what I feel I am being given. I will be as responsive as I feel the lead is leading me. if he leads with a lot of energy, I respond the best i can to give that back. If he doesn't dance with much energy, I try to be receptive and responsive, but he shouldn't expect me to do back flips with non-existent leads

I agree, with one proviso. the leader should be trying to lead in a way he feels the follower wants to be led. I think in this context it is a two way responsability.

But having said all that I still feel active leading is more than what has been descibed above. I am not saying one is better than the other, or one reflects better or worse on the leader or follower but they are different and in the right situation both are I think good ways to dance.

At the end of the day you pay your money and you get your dance. How many more dances you have with a particular leader or follower is then up to you from an informed position.

 

[tanjive]

I asked what people thought active following AF is with wide variances of result. So to reply.

Mario - Follow running back
Although active it is not AF. Just poor technique either posture or anticipating or Lead rushing through.

Mario - Follow adding lots of moves
The auto oching brigade. Again very active but little following, not AF.

Adding embellishments.
Not intrinsically AF but can be. Assuming Follow is listening and not just putting them in on nearly all steps regardless.
The list of embellishment levels is interesting. Done without disturbing Lead is good. A case of recognising what is appropriate. Taste and circumstance aside. They can also be a blight on an otherwise lovely dance.

Jan - The Follower must surrender to the lead? I see this as a key part of the role, however I do not see this as contradictory to being an AF. Clearly you think otherwise, or define the concept differently. Your comment suggests an underestimation of how much influence a Follower is having on how the dance evolves during the tanda. To surrender does not also mean taking away all input of the Follower into the dance. The connection and feel you look for is only strong if both partners (excuse the pun) embrace the idea to forge it.

Jan whether you were conscious of it or not you were also a creative input to our dance. Definitely not hijacking though.

Yes, embellishments are more often than not, not required. The number of embellishments performed is no indication of how good a listener of the Lead the Follower is. You could argue it indicates a better listener or atleast is attentive to the Music.

 

[tanjive]

More detail of what I think the term AF entails.

There is a lot of feedback a Follower can give consciously to the lead even if it is unconscious to him. It may at times be unconscious to the Follower. A slight more pressure in more legato phrasing to stretch movements. When a step is led by the lead and he does not know where the idea comes from, that is the time the inspiration comes both from the music and the Follower. That to me is the Follower actively contributing to how the dance is made. It is more subtle then hijacking the Lead to do your own thing and then dump the lead back. Compare to a follow with equally good balance, posture etc and does exactly what is lead. These tend to have no dance personality, perhaps clinical.

Which would you dance with?

If Lead invites, Follower Accepts, then Lead completes a step, it is the manner of acceptance the difference happens. Doing unrelating steps is not following. The intent is the Lead's at that moment but the Follower influences what movements may comes after.

A Follower who non verbally lets you know they enjoyed or not a movement is AFing. The activeness must be kept throughout the dance. Just indicating they like a Barrida once is not. So if in the next track you lead more of those than normal, that fact does not automatically mean the Follow is AFing. This time that move may be less palatable.

AFing is a skill of a highly proficient dancer. It is quite rare though. I think a lot of Follows just give up trying to communicate with Leads. Do you agree? Why would you give up? How can this subtle communication by Followers be encouraged?

I guess Ant's first description was very close to what I am attempting to describe.

RE Basket the exercise you mentioned sounded like backleading to me. However, the conclusion you gave below would be what I had in mind. Equal energy to me makes possible good connection and allows for full communication in the couple.

Active following in the context of embrace, for me- just as I said- in the end the end result of the lessons I had, it was giving back the same energy you feel given, not being expected to be moved around like a cart horse.

 

[dchester]

More detail of what I think the term AF entails.

There is a lot of feedback a Follower can give consciously to the lead even if it is unconscious to him. It may at times be unconscious to the Follower. A slight more pressure in more legato phrasing to stretch movements. When a step is led by the lead and he does not know where the idea comes from, that is the time the inspiration comes both from the music and the Follower. That to me is the Follower actively contributing to how the dance is made. It is more subtle then hijacking the Lead to do your own thing and then dump the lead back. Compare to a follow with equally good balance, posture etc and does exactly what is lead. These tend to have no dance personality, perhaps clinical.

Which would you dance with?

Which ever one had the better embrace.

I will say that this stretching of movements you describe is ambiguous to me. It could mean longer steps, a style of stepping, or it could mean late to the beat, or maybe some other option that I hadn't considered, (possibily stepping on a later beat?). Depending on what you mean by stretching, the best case scenario is that it's a wash. It would be a negative for me if it feels like she's late for the beat. Of course there's the real possibility that I'm completely missing your point.

 

[ant]

There is a lot of feedback a Follower can give consciously to the lead even if it is unconscious to him. .

I agree with this.

It may at times be unconscious to the Follower.

In my opinion this is not active following, rather two dancers in harmony with each other very much the way Bastet described. I feel that AF should be an active decision of the follower.

Which would you dance with?

I don't mind who I dance with in the AF context just so long as I feel comfortable from within when I dance with her.

If Lead invites, Follower Accepts, then Lead completes a step, it is the manner of acceptance the difference happens. Doing unrelating steps is not following. The intent is the Lead's at that moment but the Follower influences what movements may comes after.

I agree

A Follower who non verbally lets you know they enjoyed or not a movement is AFing. The activeness must be kept throughout the dance. Just indicating they like a Barrida once is not. So if in the next track you lead more of those than normal, that fact does not automatically mean the Follow is AFing. This time that move may be less palatable.

I feel it is what the follower feels in the music or a whole way of dancing through the track that determines AF. Other than that I agree with you

AFing is a skill of a highly proficient dancer

.

Not neccessarily, as AF can be brought in where the follower has a lower skill level and there is a receptive leader, if the follower brings in signs of her interpretation of the music that may influence a change in the way he dances.

It is quite rare though. I think a lot of Follows just give up trying to communicate with Leads.

I think alot depends on the ethos of where you learn and who is doing the teaching.

How can this subtle communication by Followers be encouraged?

Where teachers want to encourage this, it is taught.

 

[bastet]

This is soooo beautiful! If I only read a post like this once a year, it will be enough to keep me coming back for more..:cheers:
..and 'think positive', I've changed my signature.:cowboy:

Why thank you Mario. Thinking positive is a good thing.

I mainly wrote that because I don't think my reading of the situation was amiss, since he asked me 3 times to dance that evening, so the feeling must have been mutual. One tanda had his favorite song and he came to find me. That was so nice of him, because I had been having a pretty crappy evening earlier on.

I just wish more people would take in to consideration that how you act towards your partner can make or break their evening...so be nice!

 

[bastet]

RE Bastet the exercise you mentioned sounded like backleading to me. However, the conclusion you gave below would be what I had in mind. Equal energy to me makes possible good connection and allows for full communication in the couple.

Active following in the context of embrace, for me- just as I said- in the end the end result of the lessons I had, it was giving back the same energy you feel given, not being expected to be moved around like a cart horse.

The excersize was a preliminary concept for something else. As I was asked to cause the leader to make his own movements without his "help" or lead and he was asked to be receptive, I can't quite get myself to call it backleading (which I have done in class situations and feels different) but it was related. It was an exercise in leading, done backwards; a follower leading a leader to do the motions that would cause her own motions as a follower.

 

[Zoopsia59]

This dead weight thing, I suppose can only be done if the follower surrenders, but surrendering doesn't require this (thus I see it as a different entity or attribute).

I would say that dead weight is almost the opposite of surrender because it creates so much resistance to the leader's attempt to move.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I just wish more people would take in to consideration that how you act towards your partner can make or break their evening...so be nice!

Finally something on this thread that doesn't just leave me scratching my head in confusion.

And I completely agree.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Three pages in and I still have no idea how to "inform" the leader of my interpretation of the music or what moves I like without either hijacking the lead, hoping he picks up on it by the way I embellish, or resorting to verbal feedback.

Considering that it is enough of a challenge just to follow consistently and adeptly, yes, I'd say that being able to consciously "communicate" preferences or interpretation without hijacking the lead is definitely a very advanced skill. Maybe one day I'll have it. For now, I'm still working on more basic things.

If that means I am:

"a follow with equally good balance, posture etc and does exactly what is lead. These tend to have no dance personality, perhaps clinical. "

then at least I will have finally achieved good balance, posture and a consistent ability to follow despite my lack of any personality.