All Corona related issues

[fiesta0618]

If I'm understanding the synopsis of the theory that others are posting, it seems like poorer acoustics should enhance the effect, since they would cause us to shift priority to our eyes to interpret.

The reason it does not work that way is because of how phonetics work.

Underlyingly, a vowel is simply a chord. There is a base tone (produced by your vocal folds), with several harmonics (called formants) above it, caused by resonance with the current organization of your vocal tract. Changing the shape of your mouth and tongue changes the formants, and so we distinguish vowels. In general, vowels are difficult to mistake.

Consonants don't generally make (much) sound in their own right. Instead, they change the formant structure. So you identify a /g/, for example, by a lowering of the second and third formants relative to the base vowel, whereas /d/ causes lowering only in the second formant.

In many cases, consonants differ in miniscule ways, so any data loss destroys reliable perception of the vowel in the first place, which in turn which breaks the McGurk effect. The effect is caused by a disconnect between what we see /ga/ and what we hear /ba/, and perceiving a consonant articulation that sits between the two both acoustically AND mechanically /da/. It only works if the sound structure is clear, otherwise you just get a huge mess with an unidentifiable consonant. The mechanical component of the illusion is there, but not the auditory one, and you need both.

 

[David_In_CA]

The reason it does not work that way is because of how phonetics work.

Underlyingly, a vowel is simply a chord. There is a base tone (produced by your vocal folds), with several harmonics (called formants) above it, caused by resonance with the current organization of your vocal tract. Changing the shape of your mouth and tongue changes the formants, and so we distinguish vowels. In general, vowels are difficult to mistake.

Consonants don't generally make (much) sound in their own right. Instead, they change the formant structure. So you identify a /g/, for example, by a lowering of the second and third formants relative to the base vowel, whereas /d/ causes lowering only in the second formant.

In many cases, consonants differ in miniscule ways, so any data loss destroys reliable perception of the vowel in the first place, which in turn which breaks the McGurk effect. The effect is caused by a disconnect between what we see /ga/ and what we hear /ba/, and perceiving a consonant articulation that sits between the two both acoustically AND mechanically /da/. It only works if the sound structure is clear, otherwise you just get a huge mess with an unidentifiable consonant. The mechanical component of the illusion is there, but not the auditory one, and you need both.

Fantastic explanation, thank you!

 

[IndyLady]

I can't believe I'm watching this video again, and I'm not even close to up-to-speed on the technical points that fiesta has outlined. However, from my position as a seasoned mouth reader:

1. No, his mouth is not saying "ga ga". Most people don't start the hard g sound with a closed mouth. Even if your mouth was closed before you start to say "goodbye", there is definitely a perceptible amount of time for you to open your lips before you start the word.

2. The first two times, he has some funky delayed thing going on with his tongue - you can see it because of the light reflecting off of it. He manages to correct it after that.

3. The final problem with this experiment is the nature of his facial muscles while he's doing all this. It's totally artificial. No one looks like that when they talk, no matter what consonant sound they are making. Unless you are completely oblivious or don't ever look at anyone's face, your brain knows this and is already trying to adjust to this weirdness.

Penn & Teller: Sorry, you didn't fool us.

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

My studio is hosting an “event.” On three consecutive Friday nights in September, registered students can come to the studio and dance with their instructors, eight heats each night. One night rhythm dances, one night smooth dances, one night nightclub dances (I wouldn’t do that one, since salsa is the only one I know of the 7 nightclub dances). Full comp attire is suggested, complete with hair, tan, makeup, jewelry. Registration is $195 per night. But:

• Masks are required at all times (so makeup won’t show, except eyes)
• No audience
• No judges
• No formal feedback
• No official recording/video being made (you can prop your iPhone in a corner if you want)

I asked Pro how that is any different from just dressing up for a lesson????? He said it’s totally different, and implied (not unkindly) that because I’ve never competed or performed before (not even a brief demo at a studio social dance, much less a showcase or comp), I wouldn’t be able to understand the difference. He pointed out that we’ve never run rounds. We’ve rarely ever even danced 90 seconds straight in ANY dance, without stopping to work on something. He said many of their students are missing comps so much that they’re eager to do ANYTHING remotely resembling one (even with no judges, no audience, no feedback). Since our mini-match in April was cancelled postponed indefinitely, and our showcase in August was cancelled postponed indefinitely, these pro/am ladies who are accustomed to several comps each year are jonesing to do SOMETHING.

My first reaction was, “you must be joking - you want me to pay $195 to dress up & come dance eight 90-second heats with you in a totally informal setting? And then pay another $195 to do it again the following week?”

My second reaction was remembering how I felt when the studio shut down, and one of my biggest regrets was that I had no videos of myself dancing with Pro, dressed up or not. And if, God forbid, the pandemic gets worse, and the studio has to shut down again (whether short-term or...well, longer), I would really, really, really wish I had done this.

I also wondered if it might be a comparatively inexpensive way to see what a comp feels like, in a completely no-pressure setting. It is being run as if it were a comp (like the in-studio mini-matches are), except with no judges. But - with no pressure & no judges, would that be AT ALL similar to a real comp?

If you were in my situation, would you do it?
If yes, why?
If no, why?

TIA for your responses,
PNP

 

[j_alexandra]

I decided years ago to regret the things I’ve done, rather than the things I didn’t do. On that basis alone, I’d do it.

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

On three consecutive Friday nights in September, registered students can come to the studio and dance with their instructors, eight heats each night.

Clarification: there will be up to six pro/am couples on the floor during each heat. My original post might have made it sound like it would be just me & Pro.

 

[worddancer]

I would do it and video it.

And then ask your pro for feedback: “What do you think went well and what didn’t.”

My secondary studio has a similar event but it’s cheaper and we get at least some feedback/scores.

 

[IndyLady]

IndyLady: "You should definitely do a studio event, no question."
PNP studio: "Hold my beer."

I'm going to vote in the affirmative as well, though it wasn't my immediate reaction (lol at the "dressing up for a lesson" comment, that seemed accurate).

The rounds thing is important. The pro that I competed NDCA with almost *never* did rounds with me - he was one of those types that would stop every 10 seconds (during the lesson) when whatever imperfect thing I did triggered the alarm. I remember telling him during a lesson once, just let us get through this whole routine and DON'T SAY ANYTHING. I think that was the hardest 60 seconds he ever spent with me. Then during/after a comp he would remark that I had no stamina. And I would reply, that's because we never do rounds. Or he would scold me on the comp floor, "what was that?" Well, duh, I screw up all the time in lessons but we always stop when I do. Don't get me wrong, he was a great teacher in a lot of respects, so I "trusted the process", but looking back I should have pushed back harder on this. At my current studio (which he had taught at for a bit, and now disdains), at least we do rounds and lots of run-throughs of Showcase routines, so stamina and recovering from mistakes is not such an issue.

Also, that's about $25/heat, which is definitely in a reasonable price IME. My studio currently charges in that range for a heat at the Classic/Mini-Match event. Which is coming up in mid-September and which I do plan to participate in. FWIW, I don't know how much discussion you've had with pro about the $$$ involved in comps, but the per heat fee for an external comp tends to be significantly higher than that. So this might be a good place to get started, even if it feels like dance kindergarten.

And yeah, definitely set up the iPhone to video.

 

[fiesta0618]

If you were in my situation, would you do it?
If yes, why?
If no, why?

My initial impression was "Hell no," but then I stopped to look past my own context and consider yours. For you, I can see definite reasons to do it. Here's why (in both directions).

One of the foremost factors in my decision to attend an event is value. The first consideration there is cost, and for me $195 is on the higher side. Second, what are you getting for the money? The things I value in an event are:

• Expert feedback (judges, film review with coach)
• A large floor that I can use all of, a relatively small number of people using it, and no roadblocks (because everyone is moving as big as I am and in the same direction)
• A McGuffin that makes people try their best (i.e., winning)
• The sensation of performing for an audience
• Multiple rounds to perform each dance--the more, the better. The best measurement for this is the number of competitors in the field.

The only one of those present in this event is the large floor. Maybe expert feedback, if you get everyone's OK to film it on your own device.

But then I had to remind myself that, as an Am-Am dancer, I have a few privileges you don't. For example:

• I can dance rounds basically whenever I want, because I don't need to pay for my partner's time.
• Relatedly, I can get "real floor practice" easily and cheaply by going to a social dance or practice party with my partner. You haven't that luxury.
• Pro-Am dancing always costs a lot more than Am-Am; again, because you need to pay for a professional's time. From what I've seen and heard, $400 for a one-round nine-dance is not unusual.

So this opportunity, for you, is quite unique, especially in these times. That makes the value WAY higher than my initial gut reaction.

I asked Pro how that is any different from just dressing up for a lesson????? He said it’s totally different, and implied (not unkindly) that because I’ve never competed or performed before (not even a brief demo at a studio social dance, much less a showcase or comp), I wouldn’t be able to understand the difference. He pointed out that we’ve never run rounds. We’ve rarely ever even danced 90 seconds straight in ANY dance, without stopping to work on something.

Based on what you've said about your lessons and what you report Pro as saying here, this will indeed be very different. And seeing as you've never done *anything* in dance that could be classified as performing, I think you'd be astounded at how unique and rewarding this would feel. All your work over the last year deserves some kind of payout.

Anecdote: in pre-Covid times, my studio held a practice party once per week. Because we're a competitive-minded team, this party was shaped in a competition-friendly way: 2-minute songs organized into rounds, continuous dancing at top energy, with a handful of amateur couples practicing floorcraft, stamina, and disaster recovery in a space with "real" traffic. It was a $10 dollar event that offers everything this proposed event does, minus the dress-up. And let me tell you, it was AMAZINGLY valuable and endlessly fun. One of the most important and rewarding events on the schedule. No solo lesson or practice can even come close to hitting the same notes.

So, yeah, it is different. I agree with Pro on that. The price tag is still steep, but as I already said, I'm not well-placed to judge value in your context. @j_alexandra and @worddancer and @IndyLady are, though, and they say yes, so I'd defer to them on that score.

 

[IndyLady]

Based on what you've said about your lessons and what you report Pro as saying here, this will indeed be very different. And seeing as you've never done *anything* in dance that could be classified as performing, I think you'd be astounded at how unique and rewarding this would feel. All your work over the last year deserves some kind of payout.

Definitely, I think it's time for a reward/payout. I like that perspective, it's way better than my cynical Eeyore "test it out" POV. Sometimes I forget about the fun aspect.

Anecdote: in pre-Covid times, my studio held a practice party once per week. Because we're a competitive-minded team, this party was shaped in a competition-friendly way: 2-minute songs organized into rounds, continuous dancing at top energy, with a handful of amateur couples practicing floorcraft, disaster recovery, and stamina in a space with "real" traffic. It was a $10 dollar event that offers everything this proposed event does, minus the dress-up. And let me tell you, it was AMAZINGLY valuable and endlessly fun. One of the most important and rewarding events on the schedule. No solo lesson or practice can even come close to hitting the same notes.

My studio has resumed weekly practice parties, though in theory attendance is limited. Not such a high stakes atmosphere (though I suppose one could treat it as rounds if they wanted to, but monopolizing an instructor for 5 consecutive dances probably wouldn't go over well here). And yes, I cannot emphasize enough how valuable these are. I've seen a lot of tsk-tsking about social dances and parties over the years, and I just smh. Party is pretty much the main reason I dance.

 

[raindance]

PNP - interesting performance opportunity.

If you might be interested in pursuing, I would suggest you tell your instructor that you'll think about it some more after running rounds in each style a few times in your lessons. That could be one round of smooth one day, and a rhythm round another day each week. Or both styles on one day if you (and he) prefer. IMO as a student, I would have no interest in putting something out in costume (rounds of dances) that I had never rehearsed in lesson. So, I would start with that. It would be good for your overall development, even if you end up deciding not to perform.

When I was competing, we ran rounds in all styles I was competing regularly. We would run them as though they were a performance, walking on and off the floor as appropriate, smiling, not talking, etc. It uses up some lesson time, but it is worthwhile as a student to know how you and your instructor dance together when the focus isn't instruction. If done at the beginning of a lesson, once the rounds are over, they can be used to pick issues for that day's lesson. Or if done at the end of a lesson, rounds can be used to pick one thing from recent things you've been working on and try to incorporate that into round. (It can help to just pick one or maybe two things - e.g. frame, or smiling/facial expression, or footwork, or whatever - so you spend your time dancing and not mentally going "oh shoot".)

It would be a good opportunity to try full costuming and experience the process of getting comp ready (hair, makeup, tan, plus dress, etc), and then how it feels to dance all dressed up. (It feels very different than a lesson, for sure.)

Aside from that, I'd think about corona issues. (Shocking, coming from me, I'm sure, LOL.) Depending on how they are running this, how many students and teachers participate, and how big the building is, that could be a lot of people in the indoor space for a potentially lengthy period of time. Even with masks, this is more risk than your lessons, when I assume there are fewer people in the building at a time. With numbers (cases, hospitalizations, and deaths) rising in many parts of the US (your state makes the news in my far away state for rising numbers, for example), consider if this is the right time to participate in such a gathering, even if it meets current state and local restrictions.

If you don't feel this is the right time to participate in this, let him know it's a good idea, just not the right time for you. And that you hope they offer it again in the future. But for the moment, I'd suggest you use it to get him started on doing rounds with you, and figure out together how to fit that into your lesson plans. And don't commit either way until you feel sure of what you want to do.

 

[raindance]

Oh - and I also want to throw out, you can put your phone on a stand in a corner and record your rounds during a lessons anytime (if your teacher allows) and watch those together and have him give you feedback. Doing a video ahead of time is also something I as a student would insist on doing at least once before committing to paying money to dress up and dance, even if the event is affordable. You deserve to have enough experience dancing with your teacher the dances you'd be doing in any performance to know that you are reasonably prepared. Rounds and rounds video if possible is part of that, IMO as a student who did pro-am.

 

[scullystwin42]

Yup, I’d do it. Always good to get on the floor in any kind of performance type situation.

 

[Joe]

But then I had to remind myself that, as an Am-Am dancer, I have a few privileges you don't. For example:

• I can dance rounds basically whenever I want, because I don't need to pay for my partner's time.

Is there a reason a PASD can't dance solo rounds?

 

[Cal]

Is there a reason a PASD can't dance solo rounds?

Of course we can do Solo rounds; and if it’s for the purpose of aerobic conditioning, it’s fine.

But, FWIW it’s worth, for me, if I want to identify trouble spots, it’s more difficult (not impossible) to dance rounds Solo. For instance, when I dance rounds Solo, my CBM always feels just fine, and if I make a tight turn into a corner, hey no problem - *I’ve* got plenty of room. I find it difficult to dance Latin rounds as Solo Follow –without some of the weight/resistance of another body, I have difficulty with completing things like Hip Twists and some spins on time.

I’ve done rounds as Solo Lead, Follow, and Switcher, and as Partnered Lead, Follow, and Switcher.

YMMV.