All Corona related issues

[fiesta0618]

Good, thoughtful post, @DL.

Re-reading a draft of this post, I wondered *why* this thread caused me to conclude that DF is not (yet!) very well set up for success in threads like this one. I suspect it partly has to do with the notions of "from the inside" and "from the outside" that I mention above. For the DF community, and even for the community of people living in the USA (where I live), it is perhaps hard to find the right overarching context on which to base the usually-helpful technique of offering advice rooted in such notions.

This is on the right track, I think. Cultural prejudice is a topic where there isn't really an "outside" from which one can make a dispassionate observation, because all of us are affected in one way or another. Or, if someone is actually "outside," they won't have the requisite experience to comment insightfully.

Stated another way, we collectively are used to a pattern where a known and respected someone (usually multiple someones) on this site will have both expertise and experience relevant to whatever problem arises in the dance world, plus the emotional distance to judge rationally That pattern doesn't apply in this case. Our existing "machinery" and habits won't (and didn't) handle this properly.

It seems important to me that we all bear in mind that our participation here -- or so I believe -- is rooted in a desire to be caring, rather than uncaring, for each other.

Yes. It is important for us all to remember this, and explicitly remind ourselves of it from time to time. Because we all have other goals, ideals, and motivations that sometimes conflict with caring to one degree or another. That's no indictment of anyone--just, as I see it, part of being human.

 

[fascination]

In an increasingly polarized and tribal world, it is my deepest hope that we can always strive to be a safe space here for respectful, civil exchange

 

[scullystwin42]

just dropping in to let everyone know that my dance teacher tested negative, so there's a silver lining.

 

[dncergrl2]

Couple of points: In our area, if there is an exposure, it is described generally in terms of place and time. (Which dance school, which class) People who are known to have been physically close to the infected person are informed privately.

Testing is of some value, but not foolproof with the number of false positives and false negatives. Just assume everyone is infected and act accordingly. A negative result is not an “all clear”.

Too many people wear their mask below their nose or worse, pull it down to breathe hard when dancing. This defeats the purpose.

I’m starting to get skittish about places taking my temperature by someone putting their hand close to my face, after doing the same to many people, repetitively. I’m going to start carrying around my own thermometer and showing the reading 6 feet away.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

I so wish fast turn around inexpensive spit based tests were available.

I wish I could easily get an inexpensive antibody test. I got what seemed like severe flu during the summer. It might have been flu, it might have been covid, it might have been just the effects of noninfectious BPPV. On the other hand, there are also advantages to not knowing, so you can give routine "no" answers to all the questions you're asked before medical and dental appointments.

Having just read that 80% of hospitaized covid patients have problems commonly referred to as "brain fog" for weeks after "recovery," I'm becoming increasingly disenchanted (even more?) with continuing to go out there.

No offense, but whenever I see something like this, I always want to ask something like, "so how many of the people that didn't get sick had brain fog"? For example, there's an antimask meme going around that some large percentage of people who come down with covid were wearing masks. So, how many of the people they came in contact with over the past week were wearing masks? Too many statistics are irrelevant without context.

Took small boy back to a class last week; everyone was masked.

 

[rels77]

What happened in this thread has reinforced my experiences from the past 8 months that the ballroom community is actually much less inclusive and must less like the world I want to be in. Which makes me think I won’t be in it much longer. Because if anything the last year has shown me, is that is not longer okay to support with my dollars industries that do not operate the way I want to see the world work. I’ve seen pros publicly shame pro-am students and call them Karens for caring about masks and the pandemic, ive seen very famous pros be the most vile racist people, I’ve seen people look the other way because they’re afraid of what judging looks like later. I am now at the point where I don’t think I want to go to comps because I now know up to half the people in the room are so far off what I find morally and politically okay, that I won’t enjoy it. The past year has shown me I don’t want to place nice and chit chat about dresses with someone who dismisses a black persons experience. Or who thinks people dying is a hoax. Or is willing to put money over safety. Or who thinks that privilege is a myth and people just need to want it more or work harder. The past year has shown me it’s not enough to be not racist- that I have to be anti-racist. And as someone who grew up in the arts- the ballroom community is the least liberal and tolerant of any of the performing arts I’ve been a part of.

which is sad, because I love dancing. And I know it’s not everyone. But it’s certainly a lot more than I thought it was. But this realization is also sad for my teachers, coaches, the organizers, vendors and studio because at my peak a few years ago, I was spending 50-75k a year at least on dance. And that’s money I just don’t ever see myself spending again. The world just feels - less frivolous - than it used to. And my money better spent elsewhere.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

First ballroom shoes

Warren & Elizabeth Dew

Margaret promenade 200901

Almost there

Proof I own court shoes

If these photos of yourself at the above links, which you’ve been posting on DF for 10+ years, are in fact photos of you as you’ve asserted, then you’re most definitely a white male for purposes of this discussion.

Yes, as an adult, I can pass for white. As a child in the 1960s, I could not; for whatever reason, I looked more Asian than white as a child. As a result, I was frequently assaulted in school, verbally and physically; keep in mind that during the segregation era, prejudice and discrimination was against all nonwhites, not just against blacks. East Asians also faced residual discrimination since WWII vets - including some of the parents of the other kids at school - didn't distinguish between Japanese and other east Asians, so they still considered us as the "enemy". That was especially jarring since the Chinese had fought on the same side as the Americans. And of course, my parents' marriage would have been illegal in many states, this being before Loving v Virginia.

My own children look less white than I currently do, even though they have 75% white parentage and I'm only 50% white - exactly the same as Obama, as I said - and people have actually remarked that my kids look "ethnically ambiguous". I assume they will grow up to look white enough to fool northerners, as I did.

Passing for white isn't at all the same thing as actually being white, however. My self perception, of course, is not as white. Less importantly, "flesh colored" products will not match my skin color; the hue will be too red. From the standpoint of institutional racism - racism by institutions - passing for white is no good; just as my mother was discriminated against by American governments for the supposed racial inferiority of being Asian, my kids will be discriminated against by American universities through affirmative action for supposed racial superiority of being Asian, and that's based on a tick box, not on facial recognition. The DNA hasn't changed on its way through the generations; the only thing that has changed is the institutions' excuses for discrimination.

Incidentally, ballroom dancing is not overwhelmingly white. There are plenty of Asian ballroom dancers, including the current US champion. Blacks are underrepresented, but you need to keep in mind that blacks are not the only nonwhite race.

Well, presumably for YOU, it’s NOT an immediate life or death scenario. Nor is it for me. And that makes us very lucky.

The statistics are that, relative to crime rates and population, Asians are more likely to be killed by police than either whites or blacks are. The only ethnic group that is higher is native Americans.

 

[rels77]

From the standpoint of institutional racism - racism by institutions -

Btw- that’s not really what institutional racism means. It’s other name is systemic racism. So it’s not about how institutions are racist (as in your affirmative action college example) it’s how the system has been set up to put white people at an advantage.

Solid Ground defines Institutional Racism as “the systematic distribution of resources, power and opportunity in our society to the benefit of people who are white and the exclusion of people of color.” Present-day racism was built on a long history of racially distributed resources and ideas that shape our view of ourselves and others. It is a hierarchical system that comes with a broad range of policies and institutions that keep it in place.

also, I’m not sure where you have the stats on Asian Americans being more likely to be killed by police per capita

Risk of being killed by police use of force in the United States by age, race–ethnicity, and sex

Police violence is a leading cause of death for young men in the United States. Over the life course, about 1 in every 1,000 black men can expect to be killed by police. Risk of being killed by police peaks between the ages of 20 y and 35 y for men and women and for all racial and ethnic groups...

www.pnas.org

https://scholarship.law.columbia.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3660&context=faculty_scholarship

 

[Joe]

The HIPAA rules for medical professionals - which probably includes public health officials here - don't apply to everyone. I don't think they apply to nonmedical employers, though this is something a business might want to consult a lawyer about. They do mean that in theory, a teacher who got covid would not necessarily tell the studio at all, so the studio might not be aware of the issue.

You're allowed to waive HIPAA privacy protections, so it would be better if people would just be open about whether they have covid.

Yup. An employer does not need to identify the person with Covid to disclose a positive test result; a studio can easily just say one of their employees tested positive. If the person is not actually an employee (e.g. indy pro or student) the studio can actually identify the person, should they be informed.

 

[DL]

I suggest (without attempting to insist that others agree) that the more the conversation tends towards groups and statistics, rather than individual experiences, the more likely it is to go off the rails...

Anyway, personally: I feel powerless to fix a system; but I think it's often within my power to help an individual or attempt to improve a specific bad circumstance.

 

[lucia_l]

Anyway, personally: I feel powerless to fix a system; but I think it's often within my power to help an individual or attempt to improve a specific bad circumstance.

I think this powerlessess to fix systems is why discussions that are really about systemic injustice don't work well at a dance forum. In contrast discussions about things happening specifically at dance events do work.

Most of us can learn to look out for hotel staff or studio members confronting minorities to try to evict them outright or discourage them from participating. We can ask ourselves if we are individually being unfair. We can chose to not patronize a studio if we see unfair behavior-- and talk to whoever runs it to make the reason for our decision clear. We can try to be sure to introduce ourselves to members who have experienced unfair treatment and try to have their back at future events.

But fixing something like the danger associated with "driving while Black" is something I don't personally know how to do. I've heard it happens, I believe those who say it happens. I think it's wrong. I feel for those who it happens to.

But which programs would really fix it... I don't know for sure.

The discussion of how to fix it is not specifically about dance. So that sort of conversation becomes a problem on a dance forum! Many people will remain silent -- feeling they have little to contribute. The conversation that happens can go very sideways. Unfortunately if someone misunderstands someone else for any reason lots of feelings can be very hurt.

 

[fascination]

for many years I pondered leaving the religion that I was born into...a wise mentor mentioned to me that I could not hope to change the system from the outside...so, while it would be easier to leave (and probably make a whole bunch of people happy), I choose to be a force for change within that system...it's a cost benefit analysis that each of us has to make for ourselves

 

[fascination]

What happened in this thread has reinforced my experiences from the past 8 months that the ballroom community is actually much less inclusive and must less like the world I want to be in. Which makes me think I won’t be in it much longer. Because if anything the last year has shown me, is that is not longer okay to support with my dollars industries that do not operate the way I want to see the world work. I’ve seen pros publicly shame pro-am students and call them Karens for caring about masks and the pandemic, ive seen very famous pros be the most vile racist people, I’ve seen people look the other way because they’re afraid of what judging looks like later. I am now at the point where I don’t think I want to go to comps because I now know up to half the people in the room are so far off what I find morally and politically okay, that I won’t enjoy it. The past year has shown me I don’t want to place nice and chit chat about dresses with someone who dismisses a black persons experience. Or who thinks people dying is a hoax. Or is willing to put money over safety. Or who thinks that privilege is a myth and people just need to want it more or work harder. The past year has shown me it’s not enough to be not racist- that I have to be anti-racist. And as someone who grew up in the arts- the ballroom community is the least liberal and tolerant of any of the performing arts I’ve been a part of.

which is sad, because I love dancing. And I know it’s not everyone. But it’s certainly a lot more than I thought it was. But this realization is also sad for my teachers, coaches, the organizers, vendors and studio because at my peak a few years ago, I was spending 50-75k a year at least on dance. And that’s money I just don’t ever see myself spending again. The world just feels - less frivolous - than it used to. And my money better spent elsewhere.

like you, I once dropped a very significant amount of coin in the industry...very....significant...I don't have that kind of money to blow now but if I did I would certainly take into account the character of the recipients of that money...for me this has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with ethics....I don't need people to vote the way that I do but there are some lines in the sand that are about morality, and there (if I am factually aware), the buck stops.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

I suggest (without attempting to insist that others agree) that the more the conversation tends towards groups and statistics, rather than individual experiences, the more likely it is to go off the rails...

That's fair. I'll skip responding to rels77's post then.

Anyway, personally: I feel powerless to fix a system; but I think it's often within my power to help an individual or attempt to improve a specific bad circumstance.

In the case of racism, the focus since the 1960s has been trying to fix, or in some cases retarget, discrimination. Institutional racism is typically enforced by law; changing the laws, or having Federal laws prohibiting the enforcement of institutional racism at a state level, is a relatively simple solution politically.

The issue is that systemic racism isn't necessarily institutionalized, and can't really be fixed while prejudice persists. Fixing prejudice requires individuals to recognize it and change, not the behavior, but the perceptions of the situation.

As Lucia points out, individuals can do a lot with respect to widespread prejudice. If hotel staff are hassling a black dancer at a competition, point out things like the hair sparklies mentioned in Danceisjoy's original post that make it clear that she's one of the customers. That way the staff can be more careful to look for rhinestones and ballgowns instead of skin color the next time around.

If everyone does that kind of thing, it will help a lot.

I do agree with Lucia that DWB is a more difficult issue. It's systemic, but most of the general population are not part of the system involved. It's not especially dance related, though, so I'll reply to her directly.

 

[IndyLady]

@fascination expressed it much more eloquently, but that has been my path as well. I am generally the outsider (from a political/religious perspective, if not a race perspective), and I often rationalize my inertia, i.e. not picking up and moving to someplace I'm not so much the odd person out, as being the example from the opposite side of the fence that shows people we're not all monsters. It's easy to disdain abstract "others", harder when it's someone you know and like or respect.

I will add to this that I hear and respect other POV's on this and I think you have to do what works for you, because I certainly understand the difficult decisions around who and what and how much to support and fund an industry, and where one's boundaries are. This just happens to be where I'm coming from.

I do agree with Lucia that DWB is a more difficult issue. It's systemic, but most of the general population are not part of the system involved. It's not especially dance related, though, so I'll reply to her directly.

I'm just going to admit here that I initially read DWB as "dancing while black". Facepalm (hard) but also telling.