Apilado
- Thread starter Subliminal
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Cheers! Don't we all!
And positive clarification like this always welcome:
This is my hypothesis: maybe that until last couple of decades an academic description of this specific technique was not developed, and there was no clear distintion between a balanced weight sharing like described by zoopsia and just "hanging on the man": so, any kind of weight sharing was technically considered "wrong"... this could explain why an exaggerated and apparently derogatory term like "apilado" was used for it, and also the common idea that "leaning is an illusion", as well as the taboo of "out of axis".
Lui
Active Member
Actually I have never heard the term "apalido“ used except here at the forum. It didn’t hear it during my times in Buenos Aires nor was it used by touring couples I meet elsewhere. If a close embrace style was mentioned in general, it was referred to as “Estilo Milonguero”. This distinction, however was not that important. People usually categorized in styles of specific couples or leaders, Milongas and Barrios or music. To me “apalido” is an American Tango slang, possibly coined by Susanne Miller.
The concept of sharing weight is rather old, as it is a main element of Canyengue, a very early Tango style. Watching the early tango movies and film fragments, you may discover a lot of canyengue influence. For a long time I assumed that the lady’s dress had a big influence on the posture. This however proofed partially wrong, since I trained a lady wearing a very strict Biedermeier corset, having no restrictions on Salon type tango at all - to my big surprise. I’m still not sure about the effect of multiple layers underskirts, as used at the turn of the last century. If you have any experience concerning those, I’m curious to hear about them. Maybe, my theory is not completely dead as later corsets provoke a slightly different shape and were combined with a bustle. On the other hand… Perhaps they simply danced Tango, or Canyengue, with a pretty strong lean, because they liked it that way.
In my opinion the lean lost it’s attraction as a central element as time went by. Parallel to the refinement of music there was a refinement of steps. Less lean means more freedom of movements, enabling that refinement. On the other hand, Tango advanced to an accepted dance of the middle and upper class, but was danced due to social customs “con luz”, at least at certain events.
Today, any type of weight sharing can be found at Buneos Aires, as far as I have noticed. Therefore it might be considered a matter of taste. However, to my observation, the experienced dancer tend to just give the illusion of sharing weight without actually doing it. For me this is the most comfortable and therefore preferred way of dancing at a Milonga - no strain, high flexibility.
The concept of sharing weight is rather old, as it is a main element of Canyengue, a very early Tango style. Watching the early tango movies and film fragments, you may discover a lot of canyengue influence. For a long time I assumed that the lady’s dress had a big influence on the posture. This however proofed partially wrong, since I trained a lady wearing a very strict Biedermeier corset, having no restrictions on Salon type tango at all - to my big surprise. I’m still not sure about the effect of multiple layers underskirts, as used at the turn of the last century. If you have any experience concerning those, I’m curious to hear about them. Maybe, my theory is not completely dead as later corsets provoke a slightly different shape and were combined with a bustle. On the other hand… Perhaps they simply danced Tango, or Canyengue, with a pretty strong lean, because they liked it that way.
In my opinion the lean lost it’s attraction as a central element as time went by. Parallel to the refinement of music there was a refinement of steps. Less lean means more freedom of movements, enabling that refinement. On the other hand, Tango advanced to an accepted dance of the middle and upper class, but was danced due to social customs “con luz”, at least at certain events.
Today, any type of weight sharing can be found at Buneos Aires, as far as I have noticed. Therefore it might be considered a matter of taste. However, to my observation, the experienced dancer tend to just give the illusion of sharing weight without actually doing it. For me this is the most comfortable and therefore preferred way of dancing at a Milonga - no strain, high flexibility.
You may be right but more likely she heard it mentioned as a description
of a particular embrace and by her adoption spread its use more widely.
Teaching in classes needs verbal descriptions. Learning in the traditional
way was done by example, by experiencing, by just doing.
However Alberto Paz (and Valerie Hart) includes Apilado in the glossary
of his book and he, for what it's worth, is Argentinian.
My experience says the opposite. In the embrace some space needs to be found
for the feet. One solution is the Vee embrace (Alberto Paz again) which requires
no lean but which I find restrictive and predictive too. Step outside the lady
and she may feel a natural lead into cross which has to be taught to ignore.
It may be one reason for the form of the Basic 8.
An in-line embrace results in the feet being too close and the couple will
naturally seek a solution to toe tripping. And there are different ones that
have evolved in BsAs. I prefer the milonguero solution, their stance and
style of walk and solid floor contact. Get it right and everything just works.
Christine Dennison portrays a somewhat different Golden Age in-line embrace
with bent knees and upright torsos. There is little doubt that Buenos Aireans
don't distinguish in such a way and describe all the variations as Tango de Salon.
But we are thousands of miles away and need to find other means of communication
with each other and thus establish clear descriptions.
Maybe so. So-called weight-sharing (yuk) requires a tango fitness beyond
many people's aspiration and/or ability. But please don't say it isn't done
as there's plenty of visual evidence (excluding illusion of course) to the contrary
and of course plenty of evidence too to support your thesis.
However we live in the video age and repeated playing can help separate
the illusion from the actuality.
In the end what matters is the dance we have in the moment with our partners.
My first shock going to regular milongas was learning to adapt my preferred style
to the preferences and abilities of different partners.
And it's still something I'm not that good at and may never be.
opendoor
Forum Master
Re: Canyengue
Hi Lui, please excuse me for answering back: the thesis you mentioned (or which is often connected with it) runs like Canyengue is the forrunner of what we call Milonguero today, but I dont want to follow this. Canyengue is danced in v-hold. Parallel dancing, as well as in Milonguero, Confiteria, Apilado , Club or whatever, is a more recent developement. For me anyway, because the vanishing of that elaborate costumes brought along the reduction of that fortified balconies to more pleasant dimensions, through the years as well.
Another question, do you know a video document earlier than 1921 ? Surely, you will know the one with Beatrice and Valentino. There was not that much resonance to my thread then.
An early evidence of v-hold is for me the Bal à Bougival (1883) near Paris.
WR and compliments to “la única”
OD
Hi Lui, please excuse me for answering back: the thesis you mentioned (or which is often connected with it) runs like Canyengue is the forrunner of what we call Milonguero today, but I dont want to follow this. Canyengue is danced in v-hold. Parallel dancing, as well as in Milonguero, Confiteria, Apilado , Club or whatever, is a more recent developement. For me anyway, because the vanishing of that elaborate costumes brought along the reduction of that fortified balconies to more pleasant dimensions, through the years as well.
Another question, do you know a video document earlier than 1921 ? Surely, you will know the one with Beatrice and Valentino. There was not that much resonance to my thread then.
An early evidence of v-hold is for me the Bal à Bougival (1883) near Paris.
WR and compliments to “la única”
OD
Mario7
Member
'High flexability', perhaps another way of saying this is; 'lots of fancy steps'...just what 'teachers' love to 'teach'... I noticed in my home town a drastic drop in the ability to share weight once the Nuevo teachers arrived and began teaching...giros with sacadas on top of sacadas...the new and even some older dancers went for the glitz and the close embrace dancing became a dinosur...forgetabout weight sharing.
It's difficult to make $$$$ teaching apilado..it's labor intensive as the advanced dancer (teacher) would have to embrace each student in order to really show the fine points of the embrace...also, it limits the 'flexability' or collection of fancy stepping that can be shown to the dazzled student who will go on and on trying to get impressive, over-the-top correography that they will never use in a social dance.
It all boils down to the exported, expensive to 'learn', exhibition tango as opposed to the Milonguero style where it's just two people sharing their love of the music with a warm embrace and a few simple moves.... of course all this will be labled 'evolution' by the Tango Newspeakers as they unveil their Milonguero Nuevo. ..there, now I can have breakfast.
It's difficult to make $$$$ teaching apilado..it's labor intensive as the advanced dancer (teacher) would have to embrace each student in order to really show the fine points of the embrace...also, it limits the 'flexability' or collection of fancy stepping that can be shown to the dazzled student who will go on and on trying to get impressive, over-the-top correography that they will never use in a social dance.
It all boils down to the exported, expensive to 'learn', exhibition tango as opposed to the Milonguero style where it's just two people sharing their love of the music with a warm embrace and a few simple moves.... of course all this will be labled 'evolution' by the Tango Newspeakers as they unveil their Milonguero Nuevo. ..there, now I can have breakfast.
Freedom of movement; yes. More refinement; not necessarily. It certainly enables more varied and complicated footwork, but apilado can have highly refined movement. Indeed, that is probably the challenge of learning it, how to have an expressive, nuanced dance without resorting to fancy steps.
I find no strain at all when dancing apilado. I think lots of people confabulate leaning with stress, and it's not necessarily so. By giving a clear but gentle lean, I find a delightful connection with my partners.
This is interesting. FWIW, when I hear the term apilado used, it is describing the embrace, but not the dance style. When talking about the dance style, the term Milonguero Style (or Estilo Milonguero) it what I commonly hear. I'm not sure if any of this matters that much, but for some unknown reason, it does interest me (as do pretty much all of your posts).
Mario7
Member
Funny how, now that Anda has me on 'Ignore', we are both posting in close agreement. Could it be that before the 'Ignore', he just didn't want to be seen agreeing with someone who needs to 'grow up' ? ...hmmm maybe, if everyone put me on 'Ignore', I could finally find a home here!:twisted:
Joe
Forum Master
No, you won't change it. Because your definition of "counterbalance" is exactly what I am saying it is. If you have any "shared" weight, you are by definition not 100% balanced on your own.
I really don't think you're adding any more to this conversation than
you have in the past. However if we accept that you have a pedantic
(taste of my own medicine I suppose) scientific view then clearly
you have a point.
But this isn't science, this is the art of two bodies moving dynamically
together. Tango people tend to talk about balance in a different way
especially when explaining the positive role of the lady and her free leg.
Individual balance is also required in ballroom where the hold is not questioned.
Judging from your other posts that is where your greater experience may lie.
So you must surely know that the fluidity and extent of turns in the (slow) foxtrot
depends on both partners' ability to maintain their own balance despite
the much more rigid outwardly counterweighting arm connection in ballroom
compared to Tango.
Despite the point about counterbalance in the Tango apilado embrace
both partners remain in complete control of their dynamic balance. Most
leaders I'm sure could tell you about experiences with partners who lose
control of their balance.
As far as the definition is concerned I would say it's the second part
of the definition that most applies. What the partners feel is one of equal
and opposite horizontal forces rather then a feeling of being weighted.
We do?
Agree... I don't see how you can be on your own balance and counterbalanced at the same time. By definition they are contradictory.
Being in control of maintaining the balance you achieve while counterbalancing is another story. Each partner is 100% responsible for maintaining the balance agreed upon... whether it is completely upright or counterweighted. Perhaps that is what JE means?
Even in a very "off balance" volcada, the follower can still "lose her balance" by falling side to side or flopping on the leader like a dead weight instead of maintaining any internal axis through the body from head to toe (regardless of the angle of that body to the floor)
This is the only context in which I can think that someone can be counter-balanced and still say that they are 100% "in control of their balance". Being counter-weighted in one direction doesn't eliminate the need to be in control of all the other directions as well as in control of the amount of counter-force you give. I guess you could say each person is always 100% in control of how much they cooperate with, or give to, a counter-weighted embrace.
That doesn't mean however, that once agreed upon and entered, that each person has equal ability to eliminate the counter-weighting. Logically, it would seem so based on physics or geometry, but in practice, because of the way our backs work, its very difficult for the follower to get herself out of a volcada if the leader isn't helping. Therefore, she's not in 100% control.
Likewise, depending on the angle of her lean while dancing a counter-weighted dance, it can be hard for her to pull her weight back to upright on her own just because she wants to. Typically though, hardly anyone dances with THAT level of weight sharing, but the leader's embrace on her back adds to the resistance she has to work against to pull herself upright even in a slight lean. The only way to effectively get out of forward weight sharing is to either be put upright by the leader, or break the connection, which is taboo for "follower options" except when there is pain.
So in practice, the follower is not as in control of her option to weight share as theory, logic, science, and geometry might suggest.