TTanguero
Forum Master
<Spits tobacco on saloon floor> I don't know which parts you hail from, partner, but overthinking things is what we do 'round this here town ...
Appropriate vs Inappropriate Lead Gaging
- Thread starter Be Present
- Start date
Anyone remember Hsueh-tze Lee from Boston? I think it was my first or second year of lessons when she taught what she called a Jigsaw. Well done weight changes are very useful in crowded, "we have to dance in a very small area" situations.
You have to be able to lead a weight change without doing so yourself, then move forward "on three rails." If you step forward and your partner hasn't changed weight, it can be sort of a disaster.
Well, repeat on the other side, etc and you have a "jigsaw."
I would not do this without knowing for sure where my partner's weighted foot is, and that the other foot is free to move. So, test until certain.
(Just last night I got to tell my story of NOT knowing for sure that my moving forward foot could move into my partners vacating space. It wasn't pretty.)
Other steps, etc, do not have critical failures if you aren't sure if someone is going to get it. So testing is not required.
What are some examples of inappropriately testing a followers abilities?
Pushing and pulling someone around is not a good idea, but is not really testing? Although in practica I've been known to offer "help" (with as little "force as possible") someone feel how something is supposed to go. And, I'll usually try something at least twice, then maybe offer to go one more time. Again, not in milongas, which I rarely attend. (just really prefer the more relaxed feel of the "practilonga."
You have to be able to lead a weight change without doing so yourself, then move forward "on three rails." If you step forward and your partner hasn't changed weight, it can be sort of a disaster.
Well, repeat on the other side, etc and you have a "jigsaw."
I would not do this without knowing for sure where my partner's weighted foot is, and that the other foot is free to move. So, test until certain.
(Just last night I got to tell my story of NOT knowing for sure that my moving forward foot could move into my partners vacating space. It wasn't pretty.)
Other steps, etc, do not have critical failures if you aren't sure if someone is going to get it. So testing is not required.
What are some examples of inappropriately testing a followers abilities?
Pushing and pulling someone around is not a good idea, but is not really testing? Although in practica I've been known to offer "help" (with as little "force as possible") someone feel how something is supposed to go. And, I'll usually try something at least twice, then maybe offer to go one more time. Again, not in milongas, which I rarely attend. (just really prefer the more relaxed feel of the "practilonga."
Naddrin Kentlar
Active Member
If the follower can perceive they are being tested, then there is room for improvement. I think the idea as a leader is to have a low enough refresh time on the feedback loop, and high reaction time to adjust a movement on the fly fast enough that it's not registered as a failure by the follow. And here comes the arms race where the higher the follower sensitivity the better refresh/reaction times needed from the leader in order to cloak the 'failures'. At this stage the testing is no longer distinct from the actual dance and the evaluation happens constantly. Some may even call this cooperative dance, however I would say that to call it cooperative would require that follower's deviations from the lead would need to be conscious.
Numawan
Well-Known Member
Personally, I get a feel for the level of my partner after only a few steps. With an unknown follower, I will usually start with the 8-count basic and that will already tell me a lot. Just one back ocho will tell me much about the quality of her pivots.
This sometimes create problems with followers with good technique but little experience. Typically truly talented beginners. On the basis of her good technique, you think she is an advanced follower. But her lack of experience shines through once you try something a bit more sophisticated.
I came across one such follower two years ago in my Wednesday practica. She was doing the Wednesday beginner class. She is now an advanced follower. Also experienced that with a salsa teacher who occasionally dabbled into tango.
This sometimes create problems with followers with good technique but little experience. Typically truly talented beginners. On the basis of her good technique, you think she is an advanced follower. But her lack of experience shines through once you try something a bit more sophisticated.
I came across one such follower two years ago in my Wednesday practica. She was doing the Wednesday beginner class. She is now an advanced follower. Also experienced that with a salsa teacher who occasionally dabbled into tango.
Last edited:
ProgressNotPerfection
Forum Master
Beginners may just 'collapse' their frame. Or seek a wrap that isn't there; or find a wrap when they expected a volcada.
I don’t lead volcadas. I can’t lead volcadas. Something about the timing of the back step messes me up. Usually if I watch something, I can replicate it. I need to fly and take a lesson from @opendoor
Last year I attended my one and only volcada workshop ever in life. In the workshop it was pretty easy to lead two or three simple ones that were being taught. Most followers were messing up due to not used to being off-axis like @JournalInTime mentions. Most of the local followers I dance with have some balance issues when dancing on-axis. For example shifting weight and holding in pregnant pause waiting for the couple ahead to move. I am talking a few seconds not long pauses. At best two or three tandas a night will be with the followers who have a good balance. We do have followers who are good dancers with good technique. They make perhaps 25% of the followers at a milonga, are always in demand and/or in cliques.
I think I was the one that labeled his approach as dictatorial. I largely agree with @opendoor on most tango things but on this I depart. With other non-tango partner dancers too, I had this debate over the years. To me partner and connection to her, triumphs the connection to the music. My standard argument is that if your primacy is to music and not the partner, then why partner dance. Which is a separate issue from ability to be able to lead followers way above their pay grade. Let’s not mix the two.
I don’t dance too many figures. To me continuous stitching of a long sequence of steps is like choreographing on the spot. Which is what figures are. That will rarely align with the music. Unless you know entire phrase by memory and have a figure in mind for it at the start of the phrase. But that again is choreography. Not spontaneous. If you want to be spontaneous and musical to any music, then you dance steps, not figures.
If the music is good and the follower needs to be made to dance to it, that can be irritating. Not referring to beginners but those who been dancing longer time. Can I lead her to step and follow the way I want? Sure! But she isn’t dancing then. She is stepping and sapping my energy as well as fun to that music. After first or second song, it is like being in Tango hell! There is a big difference between following a step or figure and dancing it. As a leader I can feel the difference loud and clear. Only if people (both leaders and followers ) could be taught to dance rather than stepping and moving.
opendoor
Forum Master
Not too much honor: it can also be done remotely: The leading principle simply is "contradictoriness" or inconsistency. Your torso remains in contact with the follower's and does not move. But your legs go backwards. The only solution to this dilemma of standing still or moving forward is to tip over. (Forget initially the figures called forward volcada, backwards volcada, or side volcada.) Learn to free the follower from that dilemma between moving forward and standing still: Stay in breast contact and increase her micro movements to tilt. Then step backwards and forward again to set her back straight on her axis again. This part is called calesita. Its no magic. Only when you have learned to manipulate her axis you should practice the sequences mentioned above. But as I said, at the beginning comes the calesita.
Last edited:
Tango Distance
Well-Known Member
BP this is a great topic. Here are some of my data gathering tricks:
- Things I do with a beginner and have taught all 3 times I have taught a 1st day beginners' class:
- Start with weighs shifts to synchronize
- Start with a side step or back step to be sure you are moving together, and this lessens the likelihood of stepping on the follower's foot.
- For walking on the beat and then walking twice as fast: Cut the step size in half or less. Then if the follower keeps walking the same slower and longer, you won't step on her foot.
- Step short on the first try with for a sacada.
- I have a step that actually seems to go better faster (side step to the right, change weight, and then a diagonal step to the left) that I only do with better followers. I'll try it fast first, and if that goes well I'll try it slower.
- Try doing a molinete with all equal time steps, or with the quicks and slows reversed. If that goes well that opens the door for all kinds of playing with timing. (reserved for very good followers)
- Before doing very fast steps, I'll try what I call a "lightning molinete," a fast lead into bsfs (like from a back ocho) and go out quickly into something else. Related: At the end of a festival, I couldn't get any of the ladies to do even a single double time! They were too tired! It was all on the main beat that last milonga.
- It's amazing to me that sometimes after beginning weight changes and just 2 travelling steps with a new-to-me follower I just somehow know she can do everything I can lead -- it hasn't failed yet! How could that much information be perceived so quickly from so little input information?
Be Present
Well-Known Member
This is great! I really love this topic
ProgressNotPerfection
Forum Master
To clarify my GIF, I was not laughing at the post or the thoughts expressed. I was laughing at the wonderful new term "leadsplain," which is a perfect description of what happens.
Be Present
Well-Known Member
Glad you like it
To clarify my GIF, I was not laughing at the post or the thoughts expressed. I was laughing at the wonderful new term "leadsplain," which is a perfect description of what happens.
I started to use it at some point because what was happening seemed so close to mansplaining. So close that I didn’t even realize it was a ‘new’ term.
Numawan
Well-Known Member
Now you are followsplaining!
To clarify my GIF, I was not laughing at the post or the thoughts expressed. I was laughing at the wonderful new term "leadsplain," which is a perfect description of what happens.
I think this is related to the choreo vs improv performances disagreement we had in the past. I think IT IS possible to be able to align the music with figures that are made up on the fly (improv) but it’s a very tough skill set (and hence why there are choreographed performances). I personally can’t do it yet but that is a level I aspire to, since it takes a very good mastery of all the tango movements + musicality + creativity.
