itwillhappen
Forum Master
It's a funny thing that even people who constantly emphasize that women can equally invite and lead, men should learn to follow, fall back into gender stereotypes when it comes to complaining.
Appropriate vs Inappropriate Lead Gaging
- Thread starter Be Present
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And, I seem to recollect, pretty much the same with children's toys.It's a funny thing that even people who constantly emphasize that women can equally invite and lead, men should learn to follow, fall back into gender stereotypes when it comes to complaining.
There might just be a gender clue there.
I'd certainly emphasize that one gender shouldn't be prevented from doing something.
Be Present
Well-Known Member
I would also emphasize that “splaining” can be from leads or follows, but I rarely see followers doing this. So… it is what it is. I’ve been leadsplained on several occasions. The only one who actually made me crazy was a woman in a group class and I refused to dance with her again. One other male leader did something almost as egregious in a class and I didn’t dance with him for a long time.
In the context of a class there is a way to work things out together without one person feeling like they are being spoken to in a condescending manner.
Leadsplaining, regardless of leader gender, is generally not appreciated.
So in your opinion what aspect of their behaviour crossed the line from "trying to work things out together" into "condescension"? I think that would be a useful thing to try to pin down
Be Present
Well-Known Member
Great question.
I am not sure i can convey it in words because I think it is more about the way it is conveyed and an air of superiority.
The woman was just completely obnoxious. I was simply rotating to her for a group class and she stopped and very dramatically informed me that “we DO NOT move our hips like that in tango!” It had absolutely nothing to do with the figure we were learning. She proceeded to continue to freely correct other things she didn’t cate for in my form. This all happened very quickly and I ended up walking away from her. So that crossed a line. She was rude, condescending and presumptuous.
The male lead??? Well…. HE purposefully delayed moving when i rotated to him to practice the figure. We stood motionless for like 20 seconds. Eventually I thought i must have missed something and when I shifted my weight he said “No! You moved without me leading you!” I said “SEE-YA!!” It was like some kind of personal control issue playing out in his tango. So that was also way over a line. This leader purposefully set me up knowing that at some point I would likely move so he just waited. Really bad behavior in my opinion.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
I think it's pretty simple:
Are you dancing at a milonga, ball, encuentro, marathon, etc.? Do not teach, explain, justify, or judge, even if your partner asks. They might ask . . . but answering within earshot of others can ruin the mood for them. Dance and thank your partner afterward. It isn't judging to give effusive thanks for a superior tanda; it is judging to not so much as thank your partner, or to critique them in parting, for a tanda you didn't enjoy.
Are you at a práctica? You may share thoughts and constructive criticism with a partner who is practicing with you and who has established that they are looking for feedback (regardless of relative level). You may teach and explain only to someone who either is clearly your student or has asked you do that (also regardless of relative level). If the other person has not requested feedback, teaching, or explanation, do not offer it – dance, thank your partner, and leave it at that. Still do not justify or judge! Being at a práctica doesn't turn everyone into a teacher or make uninvited comments acceptable; plenty of people treat it as a less formal milonga (which is why most prácticas here are now "practilongas").
Are you taking a class or workshop? You may express thoughts and constructive criticism to your current partner (regardless of relative level). You may teach and explain only if you are a teacher. Still do not justify or judge.
Are you putting on a demo or show, or competing? Do not say a word to your partner! The audience and/or judges will surely express their feelings – that's part and parcel of the deal, so don't do these activities if you're thin-skinned. Judges must judge. Nobody should be teaching or explaining, however.
Are you dancing at a milonga, ball, encuentro, marathon, etc.? Do not teach, explain, justify, or judge, even if your partner asks. They might ask . . . but answering within earshot of others can ruin the mood for them. Dance and thank your partner afterward. It isn't judging to give effusive thanks for a superior tanda; it is judging to not so much as thank your partner, or to critique them in parting, for a tanda you didn't enjoy.
Are you at a práctica? You may share thoughts and constructive criticism with a partner who is practicing with you and who has established that they are looking for feedback (regardless of relative level). You may teach and explain only to someone who either is clearly your student or has asked you do that (also regardless of relative level). If the other person has not requested feedback, teaching, or explanation, do not offer it – dance, thank your partner, and leave it at that. Still do not justify or judge! Being at a práctica doesn't turn everyone into a teacher or make uninvited comments acceptable; plenty of people treat it as a less formal milonga (which is why most prácticas here are now "practilongas").
Are you taking a class or workshop? You may express thoughts and constructive criticism to your current partner (regardless of relative level). You may teach and explain only if you are a teacher. Still do not justify or judge.
Are you putting on a demo or show, or competing? Do not say a word to your partner! The audience and/or judges will surely express their feelings – that's part and parcel of the deal, so don't do these activities if you're thin-skinned. Judges must judge. Nobody should be teaching or explaining, however.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
Calling this one out for an eyeroll. It clearly betrays a lack of advancement on the speaker's part. My current work is in adding hip action to tango, because as my coach explained – and showed in videos of an endless stream of highly regarded dancers – the hips do in fact move in tango. It's a dance of the earth and Latin, even if some folks stick their fingers in their ears and go "Lalalala . . . I can't hear you!" when you say that. Sorry you had such a twit talking at you.
Another eyeroll. This person will remain a forever beginner. The art of the leader resides in a number of things – embrace, floorcraft, musicality, etc. – but among the most important of those is improvising around whatever happens as if that was what was supposed to happen, regardless of whether it was led, proposed by the follower, or a pure error. Again, sorry you had to deal with a twit.
Be Present
Well-Known Member
Yes! I happen to really like my hip movement. Unfortunately, after that comment I became self-conscious and took a lot if it out only to be at a point where I had to get used to adding it again. Eye roll and SMH
JournalInTime
Forum Master
Well, I fell into the common leader trap of thinking that leaders in tango have to be tall, straight-legged, almost plank-upright, and without a hint of hip wiggle. Then I was coached, re-coached, and re-re-coached not to think that way. Undoing bad habits takes longer than developing good ones . . .
I've managed to unlearn the reflex to avoid knee bend and rigid uprightness, and now dance on very soft knees with fair upper-body expression.
I'm still trying to unlearn the rigidity in my pelvic/sacral region so that my walk is more rolling and the large muscles of my buttocks, especially, are absorbing shocks. This is hilarious because when I dance freestyle – say, at the disco – I regularly get comments that I have unusually free and flexible hip motion, and body motion in general, not just "for a man" but also "for a human." But I have a learned mental block, put in place by early tango teachers who felt leaders should look like soldiers on parade or something, that keeps me from using this talent in tango.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
Just to mention that, not only are you judging here, you also have no personal knowledge of the situation and you are furthermore trying to predict the future.
So what you probably want to express is: Do not to share your judgment with your dance partners!
(Completely independent of this, I would not to rule out the possibility that you are right.)
JournalInTime
Forum Master
Sure, but I'm not doing it to the face of a dance partner. I'm doing it second- or third-hand, and essentially anonymously, from another country.
Well, yes, of course. "With your dance partners" was a core premise of my entire comment. This is why it says things like "even if your partner asks," "thank your partner," "share thoughts and constructive criticism with a partner," "express thoughts and constructive criticism to your current partner," and "do not say a word to your partner." I didn't really leave that implicit.
Be Present
Well-Known Member
I described it well so i would say @JournalInTime was definitely over the target. I don’t have thin skin. I can let most stuff roll off. However, these two situations were well over the line for appropriate.
Tango attracts many intellectuals and perfectionists. Add to that the tendency for instructors to imply that their way is the only correct way and you have a recipe for rampant judging instead of giving each other some room to be different.
I actually like when I get a follower who has that condescending attitude that my lead is wrong in class (when I know my lead is actually fine), since I just end up calling the teacher over and have he/she just dance the movement with me and they usually say it’s great/fine so it implicitly implies it’s the followers fault as soon as they say that lol.
These are the people who will absolutely insist on their codigos as the only way social AT should be organised. That's the way I was told/or saw/or read it was done in BsAs... I guess most AT participation is not in BsAs.
I've had this in other dance genres, but eventually took the view that we were valid to take our place there, and I've paid for my time there as well.
It also goes to the one true way of AT. 'Traditionally' (oh, way back when there was that immigrant mix in BsAs - was that 'authentic'?) there was no absolute 'correct' way (it's not ballroom with judges). You don't need a particular style for an orchestra, or a specific abrazo, or a dress style. It was just the culture of the era. I guess we're really discussing what we've found to be optimum, and looks good, to achieve that end. Hopefully drawing on history. It's also, nowadays, whether it's a social occasion or dance with as many as possible until you drop. The 'optimum' is somewhere between the extremes.
You have high heels
. Let's face it, they give a 'roll'.A milonga movement change comes to mind which incorporates a hip movement.
It is absurd to imply that everyone in Buenos Aires dances the same way or subscribes to the same codigos...