Are followers in smaller communities pickier?

[Bailango]

I was coached by advanced followers myself and I do also coach new followers and leads that are new in my community. The women who coached me back then openly said: I'm investing in you because it will pay off for me someday. It's a give and take in small communities.

Yes we have heard you say so many times. You got lucky. May be followers in your area are different in this regard. From what I have described yours was one of the prominent tango communities in Europe.

I never asked any advanced follower to help me. But I have not seen follower who is more skill help less skilled leader at milongas (unless they are personal friends). It is the opposite. A less skill leader would be lucky to get a dance with advance follower.

The practica setting is different. It is institutionalized way for more skilled to help less skilled. Irrespective of the role.

 

[Bailango]

In the latter location, peer-to-peer sharing and senior dancers informally coaching junior ones is the only way to study without resorting to either online classes that offer no individual coaching, or traveling to take a few classes that won't be followed up because you won't be there later to follow up on. I think that as long as the informal sharing and coaching doesn't happen at the milonga, it's valuable. I draw the line only at dancefloor teaching . . . that's disruptive and in poor taste regardless of community size. Especially for new dancers, it's important to have a safe space to just dance without having wannabe teachers destroy your confidence by making it clear that you have lots to learn, and it's also important to respect other dancers by not talking over the music, stopping the ronda to give corrections, etc.

Yes not to mention for others it becomes annoying to dance around them at a milonga.

 

[Brummbaer]

Well, one thing AT has "going for it" (if you can call it that) is that it's attractive to the sorts of macho guys who might not dance otherwise, because its traditions come from a time and place when that was just fine (and I would argue "even more than any other dance," but I'm sure that would cause a war). Unfortunately for AT, these guys are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

I don’t see this as much. In fact the appeal of tango in my area seems to be the opposite, the guys who want to pick up take up salsa or bachata so tango actually feels safer because there are fewer meat market creepy dude types. Overall it’s actually a bit older and nerdier.

I see fewer 'macho' guys in AT nowadays - but then I'm out in the 'small communities' and aging. The macho 'manosphere', according to reports, is a thing for younger males ('youth') who feel, let's say disadvantaged and degraded. Younger adults seem more attracted to bachata, salsa, etc because it's less formal, freer, and easier to 'pick up'. AT is complex, takes time, and has 'old people', but seems to appeal, as a dance, to geeks and nerds. DWTS/Strictly does seem to have brought AT into dance schools (as a 'latin' aside to ballroom). No idea what they're teaching! Only ever came across one 'ballroom' couple dancing AT, of a style, at a milonga. Seen an AT course for beginners featured at a few dance schools. A whole school turned up recently at a stage show after a promotional beginners workshop. Perhaps there's an opportunity there - except I suspect they want compadrito knife fights and lifts.

 

[Bailango]

Although I have a very experienced S.O. as my class and dance partner, it was like a feeding frenzy with the followers who were ready, willing, and eager to dance with me, despite being a raw beginner.

To me that creates an image in my mind of followers falling over themselves to dance with new leader. is your experience shared by other new leaders in SD too ?

The dynamics are different when you go to milonga with a partner who is skilled, popular, or recognized as a good dancer. Even if they are a regular it is different. I have experienced that first hand when taking a newish follower along with me to milongas. If an experienced follower brings a beginning male partner, he has easier time getting dances.

 

[Brummbaer]

Yes not to mention for others it becomes annoying to dance around them at a milonga.

That depends on the 'milonga'. Certainly problematic in a small space! The practica/milonga we attend has plenty of space available and a small number of people. But I agree 'blockers' are a problem unless they move to the centre to have their discussion, and look to check to rejoin any ronda. Fortunately even had teachers insist on that in a packed workshop. All about floorcraft and etiquette!

 

[brujo]

Younger adults seem more attracted to bachata, salsa, etc because it's less formal, freer, and easier to 'pick up'.

Those scenes also tend to record more for social media. There is a bit more exposure so fewer people start with tango as their first dance. I see a lot more cameras out in zouk and bachata events and dance floors where tango dancers don’t record themselves as much. A lot of west coast swing dancers I meet at beginner classes said they saw it online and find it appealing. Whereas a lot of the tango events in my area even have pretty big no filming on the dance floor policies.

 

[Brummbaer]

Whereas a lot of the tango events in my area even have pretty big no filming on the dance floor policies.

I'm overjoyed if there's a 'no filming' policy Saves me having to get images deleted.

There was a thread on this.

 

[opendoor]

Yes we have heard you say so many times. You got lucky. May be followers in your area are different in..

I don't think so. We perceive the tango scene quite differently simply because we're both quite different characters. In my city, there are about 20 tango communities. They're grouped around specific venues, teachers, WhatsApp groups, or charismatic aficionados. All these communities function through social investment. I'm sure they exist in your city too! You just don't look for them. But I do as tango comes first, dancing only is secondary!

 

[Bailango]

(and I would argue "even more than any other dance," but I'm sure that would cause a war).

Indeed. In my experience the Latin America has a macho culture, that’s far more than any other culture. Patriarchy should not be confused with macho culture as I seen it. Patriarchy is about male domination over females in all or significant spheres of life. The macho culture is more about men competing among themselves to set the pecking order wrt to women. Macho culture often leads to friction among men (whether acted out or not, could be passive or active) over the women. Yes it is also about men wanting to establish red lines for women. These redlines can be informal - like a woman should not ask.

I see the macho culture reflected in all dances which have originated in Latin America. It gets diluted when people from other cultures adopt these dances.

Salsa has far more macho culture. It is a bigger community. Culturally it is more wide spread. A latin@s have likely danced it at family parties. Music wise you still hear it when walking in Latin neighborhoods. But if you go to Europe where the salsa dancing is acquired taste, the macho culture within dancing is nearly absent. If you dance in the USA or in Latin America, you can’t escape the macho culture on display when going out dancing salsa.

Tango pales by comparison. Due to more mature crowd it is less likely to have macho hot heads. Yes it exists. My only comment is yes you can start a war with your statement

their dated attitudes about "male vs. female activities."

You can visit discussions and comments across internet where dancing by men is consider gay. Perception wise. The popular image of effeminate appearing men accentuated with ballroom costume reinforces it. That’s more popular image of a male in partner dance than man with a rose dancing tango.

When it comes to dance and music, there is always a generational divide. Post 60s or 70s, partner dancing isn’t an activity that men have been exposed to growing up in schools and communities.

it is very ironic that partner dancing allows men to hold opposite gender in arms, yet it is seen as gayish. Go figure. I know men who try not to disclose that they partake in partner dancing.

we have a bunch of very non-Argentine locals playing at being more Argentine than actual Argentines, trying to preserve traditions that even people in Argentina have dropped.

This is common trait observed among adherents of any adopted activity from a different region. Such adherents are stronger believers of one true way.

(The most recent specific case I witnessed: "Argentines talk for half of each tango, and embrace for a full minute before starting to dance." To which an Argentine master said, "Uh, where did you see this? In most places, if you do that, you get shoved!")

Not to mention it impractical that whole Ronda will talk for full minute after a song starts. People can’t estimate difference between 20 seconds and 60 seconds.

 

[brujo]

I see the macho culture reflected in all dances which have originated in Latin America. It gets diluted when people from other cultures adopt these dances.

I feel the machismo from Latin America is decoupled a bit from the dance. Most folks that I meet in the salsa scene didn't grow up dancing it. There might be a few that are from NY, Colombia or Puerto Rico but more often they are from parts of Mexico where there is more Jose Jose on the radio than Hector Lavoe. In my area in Oregon, there are a ton more latinos that flock to Jaripeos that play rancheras than salsa events. Reggaeton, rancheras, etc tends to be more cultural than bachata or salsa. So the frowning on men dancing with men or not wanting women to lead comes more from a Catholic patriarchy than from the dancing itself.

 

[Gaiatango]

Beginners are not often well-groomed? Not sure what you mean by it, but grooming habits have very little to do with whether you are beginner or not. Percentage of dancers in tango who are not well groomed is low. When you say “often” it implies very frequent.

I have always said that dancers should not reward those that are not well groomed. In my other posts I have frequently stated that men tend to be lax about grooming than the women. And if I was to be a follower, there are men I wouldn’t dance with because of their grooming. Either I have higher intolerance of lack of grooming, or women have higher tolerance towards me that aren’t well groomed

In a dance like tango, where we dance close, grooming is an important factor in deciding whether to dance with a person or not.

During milonga ?

Of course not at a milonga.

 

[TTanguero]

The typical onramp from class -> practica -> milonga often just doesn't exist in the smaller communities.

Or even in big ones sometimes. When I first started in tango in London, there wasn't really a true practica. There were two events that called themselves practicas, both of which were really milongas. The closest thing was a tango school which ran group classes immediately before a milonga, and it was therefore very unintimidating to begin dancing there because the floor was full of many beginners and early dancers.

I actually ran a genuine practica in my apartment for a small group of us for exactly that reason.

 

[Brummbaer]

Or even in big ones sometimes

In fact, more likely to exist in a smaller community. But it depends what's meant by 'practica' - an informal practice place or session. A concept of BsAs 'tradition' doesn't travel well to more expensive regions.

A small group had a 'practica' between, or after, lessons - sometimes followed by a milonga, although then they usually merged into an informal milonga.

We've attended two practicas which were specifically set up as such - in small communities, but drawing on other interested groups around the region to make up numbers. Both died out - one because the organiser moved on; the other because of Covid. The latter did restart briefly elsewhere, but has become a full class with teachers. It depends how isolated that 'small community' is.

We now travel to a practica/informal milonga - with plenty of space for both to co-exist and sufficient numbers to keep it viable for the time being.

I really can't see some of the larger metropolitan schools having, what might be recognised as a practica, or even a guided practica. Price could be an issue for a separate session - may as well just pay for a milonga. A short time after lessons whilst clearing up before the hire runs out might be another matter.

Probably better to see it nowadays as a progression through various strata of milonga. Starting at some high level metropolitan milonga, which may be tied into their views of 'tradition', codes and rules, certainly isn't helpful to beginners and novices - even intermediates. Maybe they should come with friendly through to unfriendly reviews and ratings?

 

[opendoor]

..When I first started in tango in London, there wasn't really a true practica. There were two events that called themselves practicas, both of which were really milongas...

Perhaps it's due to my poor English, but I intuitively associate a sentence in the past tense beginning with "when" with the starting point of a positive development. But what you're describing actually is the endpoint of degeneration. A práctica is a very expensive and unprofitable format. During the time I was active, the teacher-student ratio deteriorated first. Then the teacher would only come in to start the music, then retreat to their office to do the bookkeeping, and so on. Nowadays, they're completely absent from the prácticas. If you want to experience real prácticas, you have to go to the beginning junior teacher couples.

 

[TTanguero]

But what you're describing actually is the endpoint of degeneration

There is actually a genuine practica now (though it's on a break now until the new year as the teachers are in BsAs): Sumate Mondays Practica - London Milongas