Are followers in smaller communities pickier?

[Brummbaer]

It's such a hard dance to learn to be a creepy dude at. Feels that there are simpler dances you can learn if all you want to do is hold someone young and good looking tightly.

Well, the original dance for that was waltz. Or more precisely the Viennese waltz (Wiener Walzer) derived from the Ländler - closer hold and facing each other. (I've missed a lot of detail for brevity - google for details. Aspects were considered scandalous at the time).

Immigrants to Argentina from Europe gave us vals in the AT stable. Key points being close body hold and rotation (compare fairground waltzer - and taking your girl out to the fair). AT Vals can be quite simple steps and be effective - provided you have rotating moves.

Move on a century+ and there are now easier dances, and AT has changed its objectives. But creeps will still be creeps! They come in many guises!

leads usually have a dance card of friends from class or familiar faces.

That's from the social aspects of AT. It's no longer, mostly, about going downtown to find the girl of your dreams - as you say there are now easier dances and other methods for that.

You can divide the AT dancers into at least 2 major groups - let's say before and after major life responsibilities. Yes, there are other subdivisions - solos, couples, enthusiasts, competitors, performers, aesthetes, introverts, extraverts, otraverts, etc, etc. But sticking with those two basic groups... If they're not new, they will have established social contacts and have preferred dance venues. They will have, at least, a mental dance card.

Newcomers to the scene have to play society's game to invite a dance partner. Established members can bypass all those codes and invite verbally, depending which cultural códigos you're respecting, e.g. sat at the same table, or close by, or just in passing. Of course, environment permitting, you can 'catch someone's eye' - but you don't have to. Maybe if it's someone new and potentially exciting...

Followers have 'dance cards' too! It's naïve to think that it's the male's game (was it ever?)! In a small community you get to know people. They're fairly stable. You come across the same people in other small communities within the region as they travel. In a large metropolitan area you have more churn - at least with the weekend customers. Weekdays, those with time and money will be regulars.

The key to getting dances whatever your level, as has been pointed out many times, is to establish social contacts.

I think looks help for sure

Probably in western cultures. Talking recently to someone from Argentina and I'm told it won't help you in a BsAs milonga. You'll be seen as another posing visitor spending too much time with your mirror. (I'm not planning to investigate this)

 

[Bailango]

WellTalking recently to someone from Argentina and I'm told it won't help you in a BsAs milonga. You'll be seen as another posing visitor spending too much time with your mirror. (I'm not planning to investigate this)

Not sure what you mean. Followers who have visited BsAs tell me of being repeatedly being hit upon and invited to coffee by local leaders. Often older ones.

 

[opendoor]

...,,..it's such a hard dance to learn to be a creepy dude at. Feels that there are simpler dances you can learn if all you want to do is hold someone young and good looking tightly...

Well, the original dance for that was waltz. Or more precisely the Viennese waltz (Wiener Walzer) derived from the Ländler - closer hold and facing each other..

I don't think brujo was thinking of the viennese waltz, more likely blues or kizomba. The viennese waltz certainly wasn't danced that closely; just consider the wide ball gowns worn by women during the empire style, or the traditional alpine costumes worn by local people when they danced ländler. And then there's the speed and the constant rotations. It's anything but romantic.

...creeps will still be creeps!

And remember, the old milongueros didn't actually like dancing tango in the craze of the golden age in BsAs. The dance was much too hectic for most of them. True milongueros waited for the bolero tanda. That's when they could "hold someone young and good looking tightly". That's what I often heard in interviews on YT.

And back to history. I think that the starting point for close dancing is not the viennese waltz, but the danzón, a Cuban dance from the bolero family.

 

[Brummbaer]

I don't think brujo was thinking of the viennese waltz, more likely blues or kizomba.

The word you missed was 'original'. First dance where partners really 'embraced'. Initially considered scandalous due to the physical contact it required, Just a fragment of history! There's 'close' and 'closer'! I'm sure the formal ballroom Viennese Waltz assisted the more aristocratic, but there were other rural contenders. Of course there are other contenders worldwide - but this is 'Europe' - where the history comes from It's just another thread running through dance history.

There are obviously more recent, simpler, and popular dance forms - if you consider dance as an easy route to that objective nowadays. Never understood male reticence to dance when, if memory still serves me, there were many fit, attractive, young ladies involved in dance of many forms in my younger days. But males always seemed to enjoy propping up a bar and watching rather than participating. You had to go out IRL rather than scroll FB or other websites.

 

[Brummbaer]

Not sure what you mean. Followers who have visited BsAs tell me of being repeatedly being hit upon and invited to coffee by local leaders. Often older ones.

I should have clarified that the tale I was told was about a male lead, possibly regarded as 'handsome' in his home country, and expecting young followers to flock around upon his arrival, but spurned by followers (good dancers) in BsAs. But a sample of one tale doesn't confirm a trend!

PYTs seem to be game anywhere - but not necessarily as good dancers! Do they realise, or maybe that's the objective? But, if I keep digging that hole, there's the response that a woman should be able to dress how she wishes without attracting unwanted attention. And, of course, it isn't used as a factor when looking to be chosen as a dance partner for a tanda.

 

[Rabbit]

One cannot teach feeling, I agree. However . . . everything is in service to everything else. Feeling demands comfort and musicality, both of those rely on technique, and reaching the limits of technique sends one back to musicality and vice versa. So while feeling cannot be taught, it can to an extent develop only with sufficient study – and when it starts to level out and have a certain sameness, it's often going back to study that provides the technique that broadens and revitalizes it.

I know that there are those who believe that feeling is all one needs. I watch them dance. They certainly seem to be feeling something, but it looks as though their partner would mostly be feeling constrained, controlled, or manipulated. I'm not sure that anybody can become a good dancer on the basis of feeling alone.

Well, I don't disagree, I am on the record on this forum that a good dancer should have everything. There is an uncanny valley type of effect when you're missing one aspect, it really stands out.

 

[Rabbit]

It's such a hard dance to learn to be a creepy dude at. Feels that there are simpler dances you can learn if all you want to do is hold someone young and good looking tightly.

The creepy guys are bad dancers anyway so difficulty doesn't matter since they aren't getting dances based on skill. they just ask the victims directly and try and social pressure them into dancing

 

[tangoing]

The creepy guys are bad dancers anyway so difficulty doesn't matter since they aren't getting dances based on skill. they just ask the victims directly and try and social pressure them into dancing

creepiness can be subjective, two guys can flirt the same way and be the same level of dancer, and maybe they’re both not great flirting, however one is super handsome and fit and conventionally attractive whereas the other is opposite and the first may see more success while the other gets labeled a creep.

 

[Bailango]

creepiness can be subjective, two guys can flirt the same way and be the same level of dancer, and maybe they’re both not great flirting, however one is super handsome and fit and conventionally attractive whereas the other is opposite and the first may see more success while the other gets labeled a creep.

Yes a few salseras did confess to this factor. If the guy is attractive he doesn’t come across as a creep. Same actions done by a guy who is not attractive can get labeled creepy.

But an outside third party observer can also observe creepiness even when intended victim could be oblivious.

 

[tangoing]

Yes a few salseras did confess to this factor. If the guy is attractive he doesn’t come across as a creep. Same actions done by a guy who is not attractive can get labeled creepy.

But an outside third party observer can also observe creepiness even when intended victim could be oblivious.

even that can be subjective unless it’s super egregious like just straight up inappropriately grabbing people etc

 

[Tango Distance]

The creepy guys are bad dancers anyway so difficulty doesn't matter since they aren't getting dances based on skill. they just ask the victims directly and try and social pressure them into dancing

I caution against this, even if it might generally be true. My last community had 3 cases. One was a good looking guy, very charming, who was very skilled in multiple dance styles and had no trouble getting dances. Multiple women came forward and the community issued a lifetime ban. Another guy was a visitor, a great dancer, and a creep. That one was solved by people talking and the followers quit dancing with him. A 3rd guy doesn't do anything quite actionable and is popular with more experienced dancers. A small string of beginners (separate events) were saying this man was making them feel uncomfortable and wouldn't return. Their teacher quit sending his students to that milonga. In his defense, I don't think he has ill intent, but is like a happy dog that won't leave you alone if you are new, young, and beautiful. There's more to the story. That community is barely at critical mass and I don't expect it to survive.

 

[itwillhappen]

If women truly behaved "pickily", meaning they were selecting quality-oriented in every respect, then it would be far more difficult for men to behave "creepy". However, due to side effects, I suspect there would also be far fewer men dancing tango.

 

[Brummbaer]

The creepy guys are bad dancers anyway so difficulty doesn't matter since they aren't getting dances based on skill. they just ask the victims directly and try and social pressure them into dancing

Asking 'directly' doesn't necessarily correlate with being 'creepy'. How you're invited to dance depends on the social rules and culture, unless you're playing an interpretation of strict BsAs rules. And they're not necessarily 'bad dancers'. Some still play as some latin Lounge Lizard (what's the contemporary equivalent? Womanizer?) and may be good, even advanced, dancers who take advantage of their position - even teachers.

 

[TTanguero]

Asking 'directly' doesn't necessarily correlate with being 'creepy'.

It's not a one-to-one relationship, but there is a very high correlation.

 

[Brummbaer]

If women truly behaved "pickily", meaning they were selecting quality-oriented in every respect, then it would be far more difficult for men to behave "creepy". However, due to side effects, I suspect there would also be far fewer men dancing tango.

Information about the 'creepy' ones can spread rapidly through the sisterhood network so they choose to avoid, or are 'picky', for the reasons identified at the begnning of the thread - poor personal hygiene, wandering hands, bad vibes, poor abrazo, inappropriate conversations or comments, etc, etc. And, of course, some select on 'quality' rather than anything available in the market. The problem there is if they spurn beginners - who become advanced and desirable in future years. This is where the social aspect, and being acquainted with people in a small community, comes in.