Are followers in smaller communities pickier?

[Brummbaer]

It's not a one-to-one relationship, but there is a very high correlation.

Maybe in highly-structured metroplitan milongas, but not necessarily where it's small and sociable. You're often sat next to the person.

 

[itwillhappen]

Information about the 'creepy' ones can spread rapidly through the sisterhood network so they choose to avoid, or are 'picky', for the reasons identified at the begnning of the thread - poor personal hygiene, wandering hands, bad vibes, poor abrazo, inappropriate conversations or comments, etc, etc.

Most of the time, there isn't a correspondingly well-connected "brotherhood," and even then, information comes indirectly and distorted. Well, there are also women whose sense of dance requires more a European distance or who might be generally dissatisfied with their situation. Therefore, I tend to stay out of such situations and insist on a clear cabeceo anyway — except with close acquaintances. Since I usually come with my girlfriend and dance a quite visible "closest embrace" I'm usually out of the picture.

This used to be also a problem because a woman might prefer to sweep such situations under the rug, fearing she wouldn't find a dance partner otherwise. But nowadays, women in this culture can learn to lead and, if in doubt, dance within their "sisterhood".

At the last milonga, a tanguero told my girlfriend that he's in a brotherhood practica group and that they have a "code of honor" to ask an unknown woman to dance at every milonga. Said it, I went up to a woman who had been sitting there for a long time ... and got a really unfriendly brush-off. I could have told him, that this lady prefers to sit near the DJ booth or the VIP table and waits passively-aggressively for that one exiting tanda...

 

[itwillhappen]

The creepy guys are bad dancers anyway so difficulty doesn't matter since they aren't getting dances based on skill. they just ask the victims directly and try and social pressure them into dancing

There may be a certain (unidirectional) correlation if we sharply distinguish between "creeps" and "predators", which has not been the case in this thread so far.

 

[TTanguero]

Maybe in highly-structured metroplitan milongas, but not necessarily where it's small and sociable. You're often sat next to the person.

Cabeceo has never been required when you are sitting at the same table.

 

[Tangogal]

I caution against this, even if it might generally be true. My last community had 3 cases. One was a good looking guy, very charming, who was very skilled in multiple dance styles and had no trouble getting dances. Multiple women came forward and the community issued a lifetime ban. Another guy was a visitor, a great dancer, and a creep. That one was solved by people talking and the followers quit dancing with him. A 3rd guy doesn't do anything quite actionable and is popular with more experienced dancers. A small string of beginners (separate events) were saying this man was making them feel uncomfortable and wouldn't return. Their teacher quit sending his students to that milonga. In his defense, I don't think he has ill intent, but is like a happy dog that won't leave you alone if you are new, young, and beautiful. There's more to the story. That community is barely at critical mass and I don't expect it to survive.

This has been my experience too. Across multiple dance disciplines. The most egregious abusers are popular, charming, charismatic and talented. Tango in my community has been relatively unscathed probably because it is too small for poor behaviour to go unnoticed.

 

[Tangogal]

the last milonga, a tanguero told my girlfriend that he's in a brotherhood practica group and that they have a "code of honor" to ask an unknown woman to dance at every milonga.

I’d say that went down like a lead balloon! I have received such “invitations” before. They’re never very good dancers and they think that us followers should be grateful for their crumbs. I’d rather wait for someone who wants to dance with me.

 

[brujo]

Well, there are also women whose sense of dance requires more a European distance or who might be generally dissatisfied with their situation.

What is the European distance? A friend just went to a milonga in places like Norway and Denmark and said that codigos were a ton looser there than in the US.

 

[Bailango]

Cabeceo has never been required when you are sitting at the same table.

Rather it is very easy when sitting at the same table to ask with a look. It is not really cabaceo but nor is it literally verbalized.

Once I was standing together with a good friend next to tall round cocktail table. In her mind I only asked with cabaceo or a very definitive gesture with eyes and head when I wanted to dance with her. She is very talkative and extrovert. During cortina she was talking to a few people. There were several men around. A tanda started and I wanted to dance that with her before anyone asked her verbally or cabaceo. So I nudged her hand below the table like a knock. She immediately turns around a little surprised that I was asking. Then she says to the rest she was talking to “oh he asked me, I have to go dance”.

 

[TTanguero]

Rather it is very easy when sitting at the same table to ask with a look. It is not really cabaceo but nor is it literally verbalized.

Yes, it's what I do most of the time, but I see it just as a little playful game rather than a genuine cabeceo.

 

[opendoor]

..nor is it literally verbalized.

I don't like that many people dismiss or even demonize verbal invitations. We're adults and we're not participating in role-playing games.

 

[itwillhappen]

I don't like that many people dismiss or even demonize verbal invitations. We're adults and we're not participating in role-playing games.

If you get close enough to be heard - with positive eye contact - then you can save the words and just nod.
So I think it's more about intrusive proximity without positive eye contact.

 

[Brummbaer]

Cabeceo has never been required when you are sitting at the same table.

Then try a 'small community' where you might all be seated around the same table, if there are even 'tables'.

It's just wrong to correlate 'creeps', or maybe we should use 'womanisers' or 'predators', with verbal invitations across the broad spectrum of 'milongas' - especially those where some dimly lit 'party' environment may preclude any hope of cabeceo. If you have to get close enough to see, you may as well just ask rather than playing some game. It's clear to all what's happening!

 

[Brummbaer]

a tanguero told my girlfriend that he's in a brotherhood practica group and that they have a "code of honor" to ask an unknown woman to dance at every milonga

Strangely that seems both good and creepy. 'Good' in the sense that men are talking; 'creepy' in a sort of manosphere sense with 'honor codes' - and plotting some 'test'. Maybe the next 'challenge' is the invite to coffee.

 

[itwillhappen]

I’d say that went down like a lead balloon! I have received such “invitations” before. They’re never very good dancers and they think that us followers should be grateful for their crumbs. I’d rather wait for someone who wants to dance with me.

I don't know exactly who it was, but I suspect you're right.

The thing is, the guy isn't a creep; he's a normal dancer trying to contribute to the community, maybe just a bit clumsy and out of time. Ideally, he'd be positioned as a volunteer free taxi dancer at a festival.
The very experienced lady, on the other hand, paid her entrance fee, but she's hardly worth anything more to the community.

My girlfriend recently remarked at an otherwise well-balanced encuentro that there were noticeably fewer men present at an evening milonga. Well, I didn't care at all; I certainly didn't skip my usual break. Then just more women will have to lead, even if they could have signed up as follower. A lack of men is a women's issue that the women present can discuss with the men who aren't.

 

[tangoing]

Strangely that seems both good and creepy. 'Good' in the sense that men are talking; 'creepy' in a sort of manosphere sense with 'honor codes' - and plotting some 'test'. Maybe the next 'challenge' is the invite to coffee.

I mean you just turned it creepy with the extra connotations.
It could also just be described as a bunch of leaders practicing and they agreed to invite new women they’ve never danced with before at every milonga to support the community in making it more friendly.