Are followers in smaller communities pickier?

[opendoor]

You have claimed that a number of times..

Thank you and Brummbaer . In this case too, I realized that it wasn't actually a matter of understanding the English syntax itself, but rather that the underlying line of reasoning was unfamiliar to me.

 

[brujo]

There is a lot of virtue signaling in Fusion, one reason I never took liking to it. Other major one is I find most fusion dancing to more pretense projection and inauthentic, when compared to authenticity in swing, salsa, or tango. Everytime I went to fusion dancing, it looked like dancers were role playing.

I personally like the idea of verbal consent and feel there needs to be more of it. Or just simply communicating boundaries that day for that dance. I've had follows tell me - "Don't really feel like dancing closely today" in some dances and that's fine.

Not sure what your fusion scene looks like so I can't comment. The consent aspect makes sense in the fusion scene here because it integrates a lot of dances, some closer and some that are not. People are also at different dance levels. Some might love the close contact in micro-fusion while others find it creepy. Another aspect is that there are a lot of LGBTQ folks in the scene and they might like close contact with a few friends or members of their preference but don't want if from others. It's weird at first but I find it accommodating. But it's a young scene so as an older dude I rather the person I'm dancing with feels comfortable than ogled at.

I don't explicitly need verbal permission in bachata but I found that it never hurts to ask. It's a simple question once. Specially if there is a mix of Dominican bachata dancers and sensual dancers in the room. Some don't like the closeness and it's fine to respect that. Also when dancing with guys ( as a guy ) sometimes they are ok with open but not with close embrace.

 

[Brummbaer]

Shouldn’t we first take something expressed that’s over all positive at good faith and if not that atleast a benefit of doubt, unless proven otherwise. Otherwise no one would want do anything for the greater good of the community, if the first thing is to attribute it to suspiciously malicious motivations.

I agree. But it's not a 'nice' world where the hard-of-thinking are suspicious of paediatricians (even assaulting some because of their misunderstanding), male primary school teachers may be considered suspicious, and male dancers - well...

Also a need to be vetted to have any involvement with children. That does deter some (although not pertinent to this adult scenario) - for the greater good of a community.

Simultaneously we also have a growth of the so-called manosphere with its views of women and male roles.

Also several 'cults', religious and non-religious which may cause concern (Ah, charismatic, but despotic leaders). Maybe yet another one-true-way.

It could be good. It ought to be good! I'd err on the good side of benefit of doubt until more evidence or shown otherwise.

 

[Brummbaer]

But that’s not a milonga it is hanging out!

Wasn't that once a traditional milonga?

 

[tangoing]

Adhering to cabaceo or not, is a double edge sword. Once I did a walkceo to a follower I knew rather well and who liked dancing with me. A few weeks earlier she had tapped me on my back and verbally asked me for a dance. I always asked her with cabaceo, and many times at milongas we didn’t dance because she was busy talking or other men would ask her verbally while I was trying cabaceo. Anyways upon walkoceo she got annoyed, agreed to dance and said “I love dancing with you but you put me on a spot there”. It was dim lit, the tanda was right, and if I had tried cabaceo there was very slim chance she would have noticed. She was across the room, you can barely see someone’s eyes half way across.

This is predicament. If you follow strict cabaceo (which I do) you get cut off by people indulging in talkaceo or walkceo. Not to speak that in my experience only a few woman are attentive and looking around to receive cabaceo when tanda starts. The rest are either chatting to another lady (which means you can cabaceo neither), looking at phone, oblivious that men are trying to cabaceo, stone faced that you can’t tell if they are interested to dance this tanda or not.

Which could mean you end up dancing less than the tandas you were interested in.

Same. The way women have used cabeceo in my city/(maybe country?) has made me a bit more sexist in a somewhat ironic way. What I mean by that is that the majority of followers who insist on men using it, don't really adhere to the rules to it themselves and/or they aren't active in looking out for cabeceos, so whenever I hear most women preach about being so absolute about it I semi internally roll my eyes.
It just goes back to my own philosophy of watching people's actions instead of what they actually say.

Depending on how I feel, I bounce between doing strict cabeceos some milongas and doing walk-eceos for others since a lot of followers don't actively look and will only respond to cabeceos to whoevers directly in front of them

 

[Miradamiranda]

Honestly I think you have no idea how challenging it can be to find practice partner.

Yup! Most of my partners with whom I feel most compatible with level-wise already have a partner. A couple of exceptions… if they hint they want something else in addition, or they live too far away. So we don’t practice or take workshops, we just dance socially.

 

[Tango Distance]

one thing AT has "going for it" (if you can call it that) is that it's attractive to the sorts of macho guys who might not dance otherwise, because its traditions come from a time and place when that was just fine (and I would argue "even more than any other dance," but I'm sure that would cause a war).

I feel like I'm missing something, and will look forward to your erudite response JiT. Here are some of my observations:

• I'm speaking from the perspective of the USA. My belief is that Tango is considered macho in South America.
• On JiT's side of the scoreboard, I am aware of 2 fistfights that broke out at Tango events. I haven't heard of that in other dance styles. I think we can all agree fist fights are a part (thankfully rare, hopefully goes to zero) of macho culture.
• I don't see 4 wheel drive trucks (and certainly never lifted ones with oversized tires, and the turbo and fuel rate cranked up to 800 hp and belching black smoke) at Tango events.
• This is more to my surprise: It is rare I see sports cars at Tango events, and they are usually driven by women. I don't see muscle cars. I do see expensive, but otherwise practical four door cars.
• I knew one, just one, tanguero who drank beer (stereotypical macho drink, right?). The rest drink wine or don't drink. FWIW, that I have observed women drink a lot more at Tango events than men (presumably because there are more and they are sitting around not dancing) -- another stereotype breaker, the hand drinking macho man.
• What other activities get coupled with Tango? Hmmm, let's see, wine tasting... yoga... shoe shopping...
• I have yet to hear a tanguero mention hunting, or guns, or do locker room talk at, or even tell a dirty joke at a Tango event (some of the comments here on DF are not representative!).
• I have never heard a man complain about women leading, except if there is a shortage of followers -- just like followers might complain about the opposite case. OK, on this one I'll give JiT another point. A related point is I think most expect partner dance to be men dancing with women -- that's not necessarily macho per se, but it could be.
• In contrast, the one Salsa dance I attended had more machismo on display than 100 Tango events!

 

[Brummbaer]

I'm speaking from the perspective of the USA. My belief is that Tango is considered macho in South America.

Just note on that one (from the UK). It's a tango stereotype (like the rose-in-the-mouth). Some still like to role-play (like medallion-man). It seems to be decreasing, but I note a trend there with Strictly/DWTS viewers. But in real social AT, apart from a minority who dress a role, or possibly some younger participants, it's not really evident.

Others disagree - especially with language use like 'leader/follower' ** and expect, and some provide, a monologue rather than a dialogue.

**Personally I'm not keen on modern alternative offerings. Single-word language is always inadequate.

 

[Rabbit]

I personally like the idea of verbal consent and feel there needs to be more of it. Or just simply communicating boundaries that day for that dance. I've had follows tell me - "Don't really feel like dancing closely today" in some dances and that's fine.

I think it is mostly not necessary, I think the interaction flows smoother and it is safe if the follower is the one who decides between open/closed. I do agree it can be useful to clarify that temporarily switching from closed to open isn't a rejection though

On the subject of cabeceo, I've become more flexible about it with time. Frequently milongas are set up badly for cabeceo, trying to cabeceo a specific person in a group of 3-4 followers/leaders is also often even more awkward than asking directly, people are talking at the start of tanda and it's impossible to tell if they are looking for a dance or not. Last month I went to a milonga that was crowded and chaotic enough that almost all the invitations were simply direct random encounters while walking off the dance floor at the end of the previous tanda.

The general trend seems to be towards more relaxed codes anyway, which is imo a good thing

 

[brujo]

The general trend seems to be towards more relaxed codes anyway, which is imo a good thing

I'm sure it's different in cities that have a ton more leads and the codigos might be a blessing there. But it's super weird to me that you almost have to learn a whole set of different rules to ask someone to dance in tango vs any of the other social dances where just extending out a hand or verbally asking can lead to a dance. To some, that might be the appeal but it definitively feels less inclusive.

 

[Rabbit]

I'm sure it's different in cities that have a ton more leads and the codigos might be a blessing there. But it's super weird to me that you almost have to learn a whole set of different rules to ask someone to dance in tango vs any of the other social dances where just extending out a hand or verbally asking can lead to a dance. To some, that might be the appeal but it definitively feels less inclusive.

No I agree, people ritualised the entire thing for no good reason. Really we could just explain that you can invite by eye contact, this interaction also works outside tango, and that "advanced" dancers often invite this way. And have sensible etiquette for verbal invitations.

 

[itwillhappen]

Social customs are subject to trends, but "good" and "bad" are subjective. A milonga where it's customary to clearly position oneself in front of a desired partner is certainly more beginner-friendly, and nowadays, it's also gender-inclusive.

With all its positive and negative effects, for example, it becomes more and more "necessary" to clearly say "no, thank you." There are also many dancers, including many beginners, who prefer free dancing without a structured ronda.

I was at such a milonga yesterday and danced quite well. Because of the famous DJ and another event today, some acquaintances had traveled from afar. However, I ended up dancing exclusively with them. It was "obviously" a matter of "the math"...

 

[brujo]

With all its positive and negative effects, for example, it becomes more and more "necessary" to clearly say "no, thank you." There are also many dancers, including many beginners, who prefer free dancing without a structured ronda.

Something else I’ve seen is breaking away from the typical tanda system. What I’ve seen is some DJs starting the night with two or three song tandas at milongas. But more interestingly is what comes about when there are live performers. I’ve been to a few events that start with 4 song tandas but at around 10 pm a live band plays and typically people just dance with each other for one or two songs before switching partners.

 

[TTanguero]

a live band plays and typically people just dance with each other for one or two songs before switching partners

Fortunately most orchestras these days seem to play in tandas in the sense of a definite break every 3-4 songs. I really dislike it when they just play continuously and there are the potential worries of offending a partner by suggesting a switch or overstaying one's welcome.

 

[opendoor]

Something else I’ve seen is breaking away from the typical tanda system. What I’ve seen is some DJs starting the night with two or three song tandas at milongas...

I always loudly announce at the beginning of the milonga when I'll be playing 3 piece tandas, and I then consistently stick to that format throughout the entire evening. The majority of the regular followers asked me to do so in advance, and since then only one woman has stayed away.