At the end of the pandemic, maybe a new start?

[ardix]

The rumors tell that at some milongas the learning followers are dancing together ignoring the leaders they danced with before.

This I have witnessed so I can confirm.

 

[Reuven Thetanguero]

<sarcasm>I'm surprised they're let out behind the wheel of a car on the public highway, let alone as a truck driver, or ship's captain, or flying an aircraft, or space travel. Should know their place rather than multi-tasking.</sarcasm>

Yeah, that is surprising to me too: how come they do not employ their great skills knowledge and experience while driving, flying planes, and "captaining" ships to the simple task of keeping the ronda...

 

[Brummbaer]

Yeah, that is surprising to me too: how come they do not employ their great skills knowledge and experience while driving, flying planes, and "captaining" ships to the simple task of keeping the ronda...

Perhaps it's where you live, or the teaching, or a problem with leaders?

I agree that floorcraft tends to be the biggest weakness, but then again in London it's true of many male leaders too, albeit for different reasons.

I'd agree with that for London. But it only takes one to be a disruption. London seems to attract a fair number.

I'd say that anyone who's 'advanced' as a follower is probably a novice at leading, but requires an extra processing level to change roles, so give them credit for doing well in the role.

 

[Reuven Thetanguero]

Perhaps it's where you live, or the teaching, or a problem with leaders?

The reference was to female leaders, not all leaders.
I dance all over the world on, all six inhabited continents and find the same patterns.

 

[JournalInTime]

I agree that floorcraft tends to be the biggest weakness, but then again in London it's true of many male leaders too, albeit for different reasons.

Heh, I'm not excusing male leaders! I danced Friday and Saturday afternoons, and Saturday and Sunday evenings – perhaps 12 hours on the floor rather than sitting. During that time, I noticed one consistent trend:

Collisions came from in front of me, not from behind me or the side (except when people entered blind). In several cases, I was tailgated closely but had zero collisions, because I flatly refused to back up. However, I felt a lot of pressure to advance and . . . I could not.

When the leader in front of me was a woman, I couldn't advance because she was parked, dancing all kinds of figures in place instead of occupying the increasingly huge open space ahead of her.

When the leader in front of me was a man, I couldn't advance because he was actually backing up – either taking steps against the line of dance or sending his follower into my space, instead of taking steps along the line of dance or projecting his follower forward (pro tip: all turns can advance) into the ample space available.

Of the two, the second was definitely more annoying. The first required me to get creative with static figures. The second put my follower and me in the crusher . . . no figures could save us from being squished between couples approaching from both ahead and behind.

Some people will wonder why I didn't pass, but passing requires a "passing lane." The lane to my left (near the center) was full of male leaders putting on static tango shows. The outside isn't for passing, but even if it were, it wouldn't have mattered because that's where male leaders were entering with their backs to me, no eye contact possible.

On the whole, male leaders are worse. They need to learn to always advance and never retreat, at the speed of the floor, and to enter only with eye contact. Female leaders merely need the part about advancing; they generally don't back up, and they always seem to enter politely.

 

[JournalInTime]

The rumors tell that at some milongas the learning followers are dancing together ignoring the leaders they danced with before.

This I have witnessed so I can confirm.

What I've seen a lot of is formerly dedicated followers who were rarely invited to dance learning the leader role in order to dance more often, subsequently developing considerable skill in both roles, and then turning down the leaders who now admire their skill and want to invite them . . . because, hey, those leaders were snobby about inviting them before.

To be fair, I've done something similar: Followers who visibly and repeatedly snubbed me for years because I wasn't a hot enough commodity for them suddenly decide that I'm worth dancing with now, after thousands of hours and tens of thousands of dollars of work . . . and I don't invite them, because I haven't forgotten their snobbery. I didn't have to learn a whole other role to improve, though! By virtue of being a leader in a follower-heavy tango community, I had the luxury of staying a leader and finding followers who were more open-minded about dancing with someone who needed and wanted to improve.

This is also why I make a point of dancing with at least a few beginner and beginner-intermediate followers at every milonga.

 

[pianistamediano]

I'd say female leaders here have the same level of floorcraft as leaders in general over here. We have a few leaders who take up as much space as their egos, lead boleos in close proximity to other couples, and one particular imbecile (thankfully, not a regular) decided to barge into the inner ronda and fling his partner around in a massive molinete just as I was about to step into the space in front of me. I had to take evasive action and push my partner out of the way before he could throw his partner into her.

 

[pianistamediano]

To be fair, I've done something similar: Followers who visibly and repeatedly snubbed me for years because I wasn't a hot enough commodity for them suddenly decide that I'm worth dancing with now, after thousands of hours and tens of thousands of dollars of work . . . and I don't invite them, because I haven't forgotten their snobbery.

I cannot be grateful enough to the experienced followers who endured my missteps when I was a beginner, and so I remain on very good terms with them, and try to pass their kindness on. Thankfully, our community isn't as elitist as I've heard other places can be (like London?), so any snobbery is easily forgotten. Of course, if repeated rejections stick...

 

[opendoor]

..Followers who ..repeatedly snubbed me for years ..suddenly decide that I'm worth dancing with now... I don't invite them, because I haven't forgotten their snobbery..

I can understand that, I wouldn't do that either. On the other hand, I can't quite understand it, because that's never happened to me. Even when I wasn't yet a good dancer, the princesses didn't turn me away. Maybe it was because I didn't link my self-confidence to my dancing skills. For several years the first thing I said was: I'm not good yet, do you remember? First and foremost, even as a complete beginner, I always saw myself as part of the community first, which means I made appointments with the princesses and the top dogs away from the milonga. I found, and still do, that tango is a way of life, not just a dance at a milonga. In the last few years I've even heard several times that I was perceived as picky, snobbish and cliquish, especially as a bloody beginner.

 

[JournalInTime]

I'd say female leaders here have the same level of floorcraft as leaders in general over here. We have a few leaders who take up as much space as their egos, lead boleos in close proximity to other couples, and one particular imbecile (thankfully, not a regular) decided to barge into the inner ronda and fling his partner around in a massive molinete just as I was about to step into the space in front of me. I had to take evasive action and push my partner out of the way before he could throw his partner into her.

We have a couple here who don't show up often – to copy you, thankfully not regulars – and the leader uses his follower as a projectile. I've seen him toss her into the air, swing her around by the arms with both legs off the ground, and lift her and then jump. Also, the follower in question wears very high-heeled and heavy boots a lot of the time. It feels like they lost their way to some sort of swing exhibition and decided to stay for the tango.

 

[JournalInTime]

I cannot be grateful enough to the experienced followers who endured my missteps when I was a beginner, and so I remain on very good terms with them, and try to pass their kindness on.

Same here.

I've been asked repeatedly why I dance with followers who are on average 10 years older than me. I do so because I've been dancing for 10 years and I continue to dance with the followers who, 10 years ago, were where I am today. I don't see any reason not to dance with kind people I know who have 10 years more experience than unkind ones I don't know . . .

Of course, if repeated rejections stick...

One rejection is just "my feet hurt" or "I have other plans." Two or three is "I'm not sure yet." More than that isn't necessarily snobbery, but certainly reason enough to stop inviting someone.

 

[JournalInTime]

Even when I wasn't yet a good dancer, the princesses didn't turn me away.

You were lucky! I would venture to say that has to do with when and where you started dancing. I started in the 2010s here in Montréal, which is its own weird microcosm.

I've even heard several times that I was perceived as picky, snobbish and cliquish, especially as a bloody beginner.

I've been told that I come across as too serious and/or too technical. One follower I like said that initially, she was afraid to dance with me because I never seemed to smile and she was worried that she'd step a few millimetres out of place and I'd get angry with her. I'm truly not like that – I'm an easygoing goof, if anything – but I might have an RBF that explains "too serious," and I suppose the way I intensively work with a coach and practice a lot could give me a reputation for being serious and overly technical in my approach to tango.

 

[pianistamediano]

One rejection is just "my feet hurt" or "I have other plans." Two or three is "I'm not sure yet." More than that isn't necessarily snobbery, but certainly reason enough to stop inviting someone.

Oh, I try to always use the cabeceo, even if it is not the norm in a milonga. Verbal invitations for friends/beginners only, both of whom I make sure are aware that they are free to not accept for any reason.

With dancers I am less familiar with, if they have visibly ignored or rejected my invitation upon making eye contact a few times, well, I'll never invite them again unless they approach me. Call it pride, but they know the consequences, so... shrugs

I never ask for the reason/s why they refuse, and do not attribute any intended malice to that, but by the same token I have every right not to explain my refusal. Wish more people would do the same.

 

[pianistamediano]

I've been asked repeatedly why I dance with followers who are on average 10 years older than me.

The same goes for any new visitors - if they are not obviously going to have plenty of dances (young, beautiful, experienced, tall dark and handsome, insert adjective here), the host of my local milonga will try to arrange a few for them on the sly after a few tandas, and I try to invite them when I can. I do hope visitors get to enjoy the warm and genial atmosphere here as I do, and have satisfying dances.

 

[pianistamediano]

... that I was perceived as picky, snobbish and cliquish, especially as a bloody beginner.

I had the misfortune (?) of being very particular about the music very early on, since it was what kept me dancing as an awkward beginner, which might have contributed to a similar reputation back then. Add to the fact that I am not the most sociable person, well...

Even now, I am quite envious of people who can dance to almost every tanda!