At the end of the pandemic, maybe a new start?

[pianistamediano]

Here you go. I'm not trying to pick on opendoor, but I wanted a consistent example that spans years. The underlines are mine.

Note that this is worded as a choice by someone who's following, not as an expectation on the part of someone who's leading, but it remains a school of thought. A rather loud Argentine guy I met at a milonga in July 2017 did word it as a leader's expectation, and made some bold claims that it was "right."

Oh, I stumbled upon one of his posts in this thread. But I think he meant it in the way that a few followers disrupt the leader's lead and basically use the leader as a pole to exhibit their own musicality. Which is just nasty. Ugh.

 

[JournalInTime]

Oh, I stumbled upon one of his posts in this thread. But I think he meant it in the way that a few followers disrupt the leader's lead and basically use the leader as a pole to exhibit their own musicality. Which is just nasty. Ugh.

I'm not putting a value judgment on opendoor's words because I don't read minds, but it's definitely not the first or even 100th time I've heard variations on "Don't follow the music; follow the leader's take on the music." I'm happy that Miradamiranda hasn't encountered it often enough to consider it a school of thought, but I cannot say the same for myself . . . I've heard it from several very well-known and influential tango teachers from away, who shall remain nameless because they have lawyers.

 

[itwillhappen]

Talking about ornaments and bringing it back on-topic, my prediction during the pandemic was that after the pandemic we would see a lot of followers overdoing their ornaments, because zoom-classes on ornaments were exploding. But I thankfully haven’t observed that. Maybe we simply got too tired of dancing with a chair doing our own thing throughout the pandemic that we realized it really is the two-way thing that gives the most satisfaction. It really does take two.

I had wondered if maybe after the pandemic I would see more leading women who had spent the milonga-free time practicing together. But I also had the impression that everything started more or less the way it ended.

I'm a big fan of first looking dispassionately at how the situation is.
Here is the just published assessment of an experienced (retired) sports teacher [translated]:

The following is about the fact that many / most (?) men are illiterate in terms of motor skills and dance and what they can do about it.

Most men haven't danced (or moved to music) their whole life, it's been decades since the last (and often only) dance class. They lack any elementary movement “vocabulary” such as sideways steps, alternating steps, unencumbered taps, etc. At some point around the age of 50, they then decide to start tangoing (often only because their partner wants it). And now suddenly a gross motorist, who can't even manage a normal alternating step, is supposed to lead the woman into the cross (mostly also in close embrace).

Schritte für Männer - Jochen Lüders

If you accept that the situation is the way it is, you don't need to wish for anything else, that's no use, it only creates suffering. And then you can act personally and consciously.

So if the facts were clear to the girls back then during the school gym lessons, then they have had 40 years to adjust to it - in case this point was particularly important to them. For my sake when choosing a life partner, for my sake also by prefering to dance with women, it's not directly my problem nor will it be.

 

[Miradamiranda]

I'm not putting a value judgment on opendoor's words because I don't read minds, but it's definitely not the first or even 100th time I've heard variations on "Don't follow the music; follow the leader's take on the music." I'm happy that Miradamiranda hasn't encountered it often enough to consider it a school of thought, but I cannot say the same for myself . . . I've heard it from several very well-known and influential tango teachers from away, who shall remain nameless because they have lawyers.

Thanks for backing up your argument with data. I’ve never ever heard anyone else express it like that. There are sometimes the type of leader who has a ‘my way or the highway’ attitude, but I would say it’s a personality trait more than a philosophical direction. It surprises me that this came from Opendoor, as I’ve liked a lot of the things he has had to say in the few months I’ve been hanging out here.

 

[Miradamiranda]

Well, everyone’s opinions about this grow out of their own experiences, good or bad, I would hope, and not just blindly accepting sone self-proclaimed ‘authority’ on the subject and call it a school of thought.

Before I attempt to add my little extras with a new partner, I definitely try to gage his level and personality, and the more inexperienced he is, the more I’m careful to not mess with his limited vocabulary or ability to improvise. I can actually imagine how an overly enthusiastic Adorno-exaggerating follower in someone’s past could shape such attitudes. I’ve seen some.

 

[Rabbit]

Tangos I've danced a few times a week for a decade still manage to surprise me.

You are lucky, I cannot say the same. My hearing perception is too well developed, I notice everything the first or second time. Because of this I hear too many similar textures, I do not tire of "alternative" songs any more than "traditional" ones that get played too often. Oigo tu voz, y estoy aburrido. I need variation in order to keep the freshness, I actively want other DJs to play their most unconventional tandas, I can interpret any melody, any rhythm, any instrumentation, I can find enough detail in one musical line to inspire most of the dance. the only crimes are being boring and playing things that don't sound beautiful.

 

[pianistamediano]

The following is about the fact that many / most (?) men are illiterate in terms of motor skills and dance and what they can do about it.

Most men haven't danced (or moved to music) their whole life, it's been decades since the last (and often only) dance class. They lack any elementary movement “vocabulary” such as sideways steps, alternating steps, unencumbered taps, etc. At some point around the age of 50, they then decide to start tangoing (often only because their partner wants it). And now suddenly a gross motorist, who can't even manage a normal alternating step, is supposed to lead the woman into the cross (mostly also in close embrace).

Ouch. But true (for many men). The problem is that this truth colours the impressions of some teachers and followers, generates disparaging remarks, and disheartens men who actually want to learn how to dance.

So if the facts were clear to the girls back then during the school gym lessons, then they have had 40 years to adjust to it - in case this point was particularly important to them.

Seems like there'll always be a shortage of men then.

 

[itwillhappen]

It surprises me that this came from Opendoor, as I’ve liked a lot of the things he has had to say in the few months I’ve been hanging out here.

If you don't want to invest much effort in following, and if you can only expect a few suitable leaders, then I think @opendoor's opinion is quite reasonable. As if I say to a beginner follower "You don't need to turn off your head, just stay with me and my lead will take care of it". A tactic for a pleasant moment, not a strategy for a dance life.

If a woman wants - and also can - lead me at a workshop or a practica, then I'll try to get into a flow mode as soon as possible. Let her work for my wellbeing now in turn!

 

[pianistamediano]

I can actually imagine how an overly enthusiastic Adorno-exaggerating follower in someone’s past could shape such attitudes. I’ve seen some.

Yes, I can personally attest to that. I've made the mistake of dancing with followers who back-led, strained my back by being too heavy, flailed their legs everywhere, and/or just. Wouldn't. Stand. Still. To my favourite orquestas and songs, no less. Never again. I've become more selective and wary of taking chances just because of those bad experiences, so I prefer to watch followers on the floor or rely on recommendations from leaders I trust.

 

[JournalInTime]

My hearing perception is too well developed, I notice everything the first or second time.

You have what a pianist friend who's also a tanguera calls "the musician's curse": You dance well to all the bits of the music but you hear all the bits all the time. I'm whatever the opposite of gifted is with musical instruments (seriously, hand me one and I'll figure out a way to create a new noise that kills plants), so for me, other people playing music is this realm of pure wonder in which I constantly "discover" things that I'm sure the musicians find obvious.

 

[JournalInTime]

Most men haven't danced (or moved to music) their whole life, it's been decades since the last (and often only) dance class.

Both where I grew up and where I now live, "most men" haven't even had one dance class way back when . . . Thinking about my non-tango friends, close to none of them – men or women – have taken so much as one dance class. Dance isn't taught to children and adolescents at school here the way very basic music, visual arts, and (especially) sports are. If you want to dance, you must make a conscious effort to find a dance school, enroll, and take lessons, which is too much like work for the majority of people. That's "people," not "boys" or "men.": "Little girls all want to be ballerinas, so they take dance" is silly old-timey thinking unsupported by reality anywhere I've ever lived.

 

[opendoor]

...and made some bold claims that it was "right."

oops, I didn't notice anything. What are you discussing right now? By chance, that I am too authoritarian in leading. If so, then I apologize for that. The temper totally rules me when good music is playing. And thank god, the traditional lead-follow arrangement gives me the opportunity to live it out. If the music is suboptimal, I'm willing to make many compromises.

 

[opendoor]

...an overly enthusiastic Adorno-exaggerating follower ...could shape such attitudes. I’ve seen some..

You can't outbid Adorno. I must have read his aesthetics five times, it is knotty, linguistically hermetic and very demanding. But one thing is clear: the master liked shy, adolescent girls who always breathed yes.

Theodor W. Adorno - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[JournalInTime]

By chance, that I am too authoritarian in leading.

Not that . . . the quoted comments from way back when were more about how, when you follow, you shut off the music and listen to the leader.

That's fine as a choice when following! My assertion is only that it should always be the follower's choice. The follower should also always have the choice to follow the music directly and use the leader's input as an amendment to the music. At least in theory, if both dancers are dancing to the same music, both are taking the other's movements as proposals to amend the music, and both are making a conscious effort not to disturb their partner, the result should be musical and connected.

 

[Naddrin Kentlar]

Thanks for backing up your argument with data. I’ve never ever heard anyone else express it like that. There are sometimes the type of leader who has a ‘my way or the highway’ attitude, but I would say it’s a personality trait more than a philosophical direction. It surprises me that this came from Opendoor, as I’ve liked a lot of the things he has had to say in the few months I’ve been hanging out here.

Yeah, despite popular belief there isn't an unified consensus on what tango is, out how it should be danced