At the end of the pandemic, maybe a new start?

[pianistamediano]

I'm a bit of a technical geek . . . I can talk/write for hours about time and space, angles and vectors, forces and momentum; about visualizations, efficiency of movement, and practical tricks; and about ways to break down complex movements into movement particles, and to classify them based on their geometry, physics, and biomechanics.

As a mathematician, I love the way you're being so precise and exact about things! I find that I go through something of the same process - but with less precision, of course - in order to inscribe it into my muscle memory, the same way I do with piano techniques. I've been trying to physically understand (in a sense) how a leader conveys his "intention" to the follower in the beginning of a step, since it's come up quite often when I'm helping beginner leaders. How would you describe it?

 

[JournalInTime]

As a mathematician, I love the way you're being so precise and exact about things!

I spent 10 years earning two physics degrees. My undergraduate degree was so close to a mathematics degree that the head of the Department of Mathematics – a close friend of my best friend's father – accosted me at a bus stop to say that I could have a second degree if I stayed another semester for four more courses. My graduate degree was in theoretical particle physics, which is applied mathematics; I dealt with algebras, functionals, groups, and tensors that had little to do with the universe.

I've been trying to physically understand (in a sense) how a leader conveys his "intention" to the follower in the beginning of a step, since it's come up quite often when I'm helping beginner leaders. How would you describe it?

For a led weight change in place, it's a matter of pushing into the floor with the weight-bearing foot and executing a subtle (externally invisible) ∪ or ∩ shaped torso movement to convey to the follower that they should change feet toward or away from the pushing foot. Whether you transfer your weight is irrelevant. You can do that or not, but you shouldn't convey it. What you do is for you, and travels up one leg, across your pelvis, and down the other; you lead them with the ∪ or ∩ in the torso. Isolating the two uses lateral dissociation. It's common to cheat and link your movement to theirs for symmetric weight changes, but this creates the "rocking boat" lead, which causes sloppy shoulder-tilt and head-bobbing.

For a step, I would describe the process as pushing into the floor with the weight-bearing foot to store energy in preparation for the step, and conveying that preparation by activating (meaning tonus, not tension) the chain of muscles inside your body between the floor and the follower so that the follower feels, "We're about to move." The leg they know to move is perforce the one that's free; you can use the weight change I just described to free the correct leg, and you can free the leg simultaneously with step preparation. The direction of the step is indicated with a torso shift propelled by the floor energy: circular dissociation into slight twist forward on the free side to make the follower step back, circular dissociation into slight twist back on the free side to make the follower step forward, or a continuation of lateral dissociation to make the follower step to the side. Whether you step at the same time, with a delay, or not at all is again for you . . . your step shouldn't force theirs in anything but the longest strides.

For a pivot, I would describe the process as beginning a dissociation spiral from the head down – eyes, head, upper torso, lower torso, hips, legs, feet – which indicates the direction and speed of the pivot. The energy from the pivot comes from pushing into the floor with the weight-bearing foot and using it to drive circular rather than linear movement. It becomes a turn if you combine it with the intention to have the follower step, above, and continue to dissociate; if you're staying in place, this is an example of leading a step without yourself stepping. The step you lead conveys the step with which the turn begins (you've already given direction and speed), after which a follower will normally commence the FSBS pattern from that step until you interrupt that pattern with one of the leads above to change it, or you stop moving.

For a pause, you simply don't do any of the above. For a true stop, you also bend your knees some to get heavy; if you want a parada, stick your free foot out after the stop without communicating it. For both, you must slow your movement in preparation. If not, it'll be very sudden. You can do this on purpose to get a boleo or gancho, of course. You can also get those by changing direction, which is the same thing because at some point between moving in one direction and moving in the opposite direction, you had to come to a stop, which is where the boleo or gancho is created.

Other leads get fussier: Volcadas involve retreating (or, for back volcadas, advancing) your torso without any step preparation, which is front-back lateral dissociation rather than side-to-side lateral dissociation; you don't really have to step yourself, though that makes it easier and usually looks more dramatic (I lead mini-volcadas from a full stop). Colgadas and soltadas involve arm elasticity and opening; colgadas also get the opposite of the volcada lead. Suspensions involve ribcage cradling with the arm on the closed side and standing a little taller by straightening out ankles, knees, and hips. Groundings involve downward pressure toward the hips and bending knees to get heavier. And so on.

This all assumes free leg/weight-bearing leg dynamics. With equal distribution for you, you have to use the torso more, but you can still create all movements by freeing legs and leading steps with front-back lateral, side-to-side lateral, or circular dissociation. You have a more solid base for some stuff. You can also put the follower on two legs, which is nice for fancy walks around the follower and certain fricciones . . . that takes a grounding lead first, but not always a stop.

And more so on.

All of which is how I was taught. I know others DON'T do everything this way. Notably, I know that there are schools of thought that pivots should be created by stepping around the follower, which I regard as an artistic choice and not a technical one; I lead them with my spiral and step only if it's a progressive turn down the floor or if I want to get my leg to a better position for something afterward. Likewise, many leaders use their arms a lot more; outside of suspensions, soltadas, and colgadas, I just use mine to secure torsos together for clearer communication, and often release them as artistic expression. This gets especially heated for boleos . . . some lead them by stepping around the follower, some with torso dissociation, some with arms, some with combos of these. I prefer torso only with maybe a little step, but firmly believe use of arms is dangerous and the sign of a bad dancer.

 

[JournalInTime]

I have to add that this is all "in a few milliseconds, without thinking about it."

Beginners have to think about it. This why it's so hard for them to be musical (their brain isn't as fast as the music, so their body lags the music and their follower's body really lags the music) and to flow (they can't use the previous movement to prep the next one, like "movement/prep-movement/prep-movement/prep," but have to do "prep-movement-reset-prep-movement-reset," and can't combine things like "free the leg simultaneously with step preparation"). You can explain it all, but it'll seem like a towering mess of complex ideas.

Conversely, people who've danced for a while no longer think about it. It all happens in "muscle memory," with many elements being combined to do two or more things at once: each movement preps the next, a single lead changes weight and sets up a step, and so on. Trying to explain it results in . . . paragraphs like mine, sure to confuse any beginner who asks.

The mark of a good teacher is being able to think about what you do automatically and explain it in simple terms to someone who can't do it at all. The fact that I need paragraphs to do this is why I think I'm not ready to be a teacher.

 

[Rabbit]

We constantly come back to, "Why tango?" Each of us can answer only for ourselves. There are endless possible answers. Here are 10 (because people like 10s) that a significant number of people I know have given me over the years. Sorted in order of importance to me, personally:

1. To master a discipline purely for its own sake – to prove you can do it.​

2. To have an excuse to get out of the house and away from work – for the third place.​

3. For emotional health – to combat depression, anxiety, or what have you, or simply to play.​

4. To make likeminded friends, mainly other tango maniacs who understand your pastime.​

5. To keep the brain in shape – to keep learning and retain function.​

6. To keep the body in shape – to improve balance, flexibility, posture, etc.​

7. Out of love of tango music – it's composition, instruments, sound, textures, etc.​

8. To earn money performing, teaching, organizing, or whatever.​

9. Out of love of Argentine culture and tradition.​

10. To meet potential romantic partners.​

11. because it's probably the partner dance form with the most room to create an improvised musical interpretation

12. to experience and give direct sensual and emotional pleasure without the exclusivity socially expected of #10

 

[Rabbit]

The mark of a good teacher is being able to think about what you do automatically and explain it in simple terms to someone who can't do it at all. The fact that I need paragraphs to do this is why I think I'm not ready to be a teacher.

No one tries to explain all that at once though, you give beginners an approximate simplification to get them part of the way there and then try to fix the things they didn't intuitively get one thing at a time

 

[Bailango]

We constantly come back to, "Why tango?" Each of us can answer only for ourselves. There are endless possible answers. Here are 10 (because people like 10s) that a significant number of people I know have given me over the years. Sorted in order of importance to me, personally:

1. To master a discipline purely for its own sake – to prove you can do it.​

2. To have an excuse to get out of the house and away from work – for the third place.​

3. For emotional health – to combat depression, anxiety, or what have you, or simply to play.​

4. To make likeminded friends, mainly other tango maniacs who understand your pastime.​

5. To keep the brain in shape – to keep learning and retain function.​

6. To keep the body in shape – to improve balance, flexibility, posture, etc.​

7. Out of love of tango music – it's composition, instruments, sound, textures, etc.​

8. To earn money performing, teaching, organizing, or whatever.​

9. Out of love of Argentine culture and tradition.​

10. To meet potential romantic partners.​

I'm on these forums mainly to aid #1 and #5, and for virtual #4. I work with a coach primarily for #1, #5, and the faint hope of #8 someday. I attend prácticas for #1 and #6. I go to the milonga for #2, #3, #4, and #7.

So, #1 shows up three times (unsurprisingly), #4 and #5 turn up two times each (they aren't #2 and #3 because not everything has equal time or weight), and #2, #3, #6, #7, and #8 appear once apiece. Just as important, #9 and #10 don't show up at all . . . I put them on the list because I wanted 10 items, but I have no fascination with Argentina and no interest in hookups.

This tells me that I'm on these forums because they align perfectly with my tango priorities, and that those priorities are mainly technical and intellectual, with a side order of social.

I left off many other possibilities (e.g., "To travel," "To collect shoes," and "To have a cool hobby I can brag about") that might matter a great deal to other people!

I doubt that anyone else here shares exactly my priorities – whether overall or as their specific reasons to post here, study tango, practice, or attend the milonga. I imagine that many people would add some of the many reasons I omitted, while cutting some of my list. Some wouldn't even understand why I treat talk, study, and practice as being as relevant as the milonga. All of which is fine!

No list and no sorting of the list is universally "right" or The One True Way. Having totally different lists or priorities doesn't mean two people can't be friends. I had a long conversion about tango yesterday with someone whose priorities were clearly "Love of Argentine culture and tradition," "Love of tango music," and "Travel for tango," and yet we understood each other and we're friends.

A little surprised “love for dancing” didn’t make it to your list. That is one of primary reasons I found amongst the people that continued dancing beyond beginner’s hell. Some already loved dancing and some fell in love with it.

I am not surprised by #1. It is often main driver for many. Especially men. In my experience, women overwhelmingly are into #9 compared to men. Far more women I know visit BsAs than men and more frequently. In fact, most men I know have been to BsAs may be once or twice or never. They also happen to be unattached. Most women (single and married/couples) I know go there more frequently. From once every two years to those who go at least twice a year.

 

[Bailango]

And for men, with a gender ratio of 5:1 here, it is also a paradise

The most imbalanced regular milongas I danced were a few in Eastern Europe with at worse 2:1 ratio. Because the milongas were large (100-200), the ratio didn’t hit you in face unless you observed the whole space. You are in certain section, which means there 30-35 people around you. You move to different section another 30-35 people. Within section, the ratio would vary almost equal to less equal.

Most other milongas in Europe I have visited were likely 1.5:1 or less. At some of the popular milongas in Berlin or Paris, I doubt ratio ever reached 1.5:1 during the peak unbalance.

The mythical 3:1 or 5:1 ratio I see mentioned here or read in the blogs, I never experienced. The local milongas I am used to, have either slightly more men or almost 1:1.

If you are indeed dancing in areas with 2:1,3:1, or 5:1 ratio, our Tango experiences will be very different in almost every aspect of its social dynamics. We are living on different planets. I might intellectually process but can’t relate to your experiences!

 

[Bailango]

The mark of a good teacher is being able to think about what you do automatically and explain it in simple terms to someone who can't do it at all. The fact that I need paragraphs to do this is why I think I'm not ready to be a teacher.

I beg to differ. A good teacher should be able to process it and consciously aware of the breakdown the way you explained. Most tango teachers and instructors can barely breakdown and explain 50% of what you did. That is very few are able to explain the actual process. When they can’t explain or breakdown the process, it is more “watch me do this, feel me lead you or follow you”. Then it is left for you to process and break it down on your own. Which takes time, learning from multiple instructors, and figuring out what really works.

For example this part:

For a led weight change in place, it's a matter of pushing into the floor with the weight-bearing foot and executing a subtle (externally invisible) ∪ or ∩ shaped torso movement to convey to the follower that they should change feet toward or away from the pushing foot. Whether you transfer your weight is irrelevant. You can do that or not, but you shouldn't convey it. What you do is for you, and travels up one leg, across your pelvis, and down the other; you lead them with the ∪ or ∩ in the torso. Isolating the two uses lateral dissociation. It's common to cheat and link your movement to theirs for symmetric weight changes, but this creates the "rocking boat" lead, which causes sloppy shoulder-tilt and head-bobbing.

For a step, I would describe the process as pushing into the floor with the weight-bearing foot to store energy in preparation for the step, and conveying that preparation by activating (meaning tonus, not tension) the chain of muscles inside your body between the floor and the follower so that the follower feels, "We're about to move." The leg they know to move is perforce the one that's free; you can use the weight change I just described to free the correct leg, and you can free the leg simultaneously with step preparation. The direction of the step is indicated with a torso shift propelled by the floor energy: circular dissociation into slight twist forward on the free side to make the follower step back, circular dissociation into slight twist back on the free side to make the follower step forward, or a continuation of lateral dissociation to make the follower step to the side. Whether you step at the same time, with a delay, or not at all is again for you . . . your step shouldn't force theirs in anything but the longest strides.

It took me a few years to understand and execute this process to my level of satisfaction. That is after I had already been dancing for several years. I still find ways to improve upon it in minor ways. I have no idea if I could have done it sooner had my frequency not being few set or lessons/workshops a year. I would attribute 60% of it to single instructor, their workshops and a couple of privates with them. And remaining 40% to diverse set of workshops teaching some aspect of it over the span of a few years. I don’t think I learned 100% of the process from any one instructor. And no instructor could explain or breakdown more than 50% of the process to achieve execution. The theme is the same - fundamentals of weight change, projection, forward/backward/side step. I am sure I attended workshops that were dedicated only to this. By more than a dozen instructors, including very well known names and a few former mundial champions. However I have to say only half were effective in breaking down 30% or 50% of the process. So count the others out from ability to add to learning process. There have been a few workshops and practicas where while partnering I could give an “aha!” movement to the person when they were struggling with some aspect of it, which they couldn’t get from the instructor despite asking personally. Most have been other leaders.

My bottom line is you are vastly underestimating your ability to have understood and broken down the technique, and then able to convey it precisely. You are also underestimating the investment of time and effort you put in to get there. On the other hand you are vastly overestimating ability of the instructors, including so called “maestros” to be able to breakdown and teach technique. I doubt how many of long time instructors and maestros have spend time analyzing, processing, and refining each minor component that goes into attaining a technique, like a scientist would do.

In dancing simple things are often most difficult to explain. People mistake simple as easy. Simple explanations don’t help in learning to master simple things. Dancing simple and making it look elegant, musical, and attractive, is most difficult. It is much easier to make dance look elegant and attractive by using a combination of figures consisting of fast footwork and movements. That is a skill too. But relatively more attainable.

 

[opendoor]

...Sorted in order of importance to me, personally:

1. To master a discipline purely for its own sake – to prove you can do it.​

2. To have an excuse to get out of the house and away from work – for the third place.​

3. For emotional health – to combat depression, anxiety, or what have you, or simply to play.​

4. To make likeminded friends, mainly other tango maniacs who understand your pastime.​

5. To keep the brain in shape – to keep learning and retain function.​

6. To keep the body in shape – to improve balance, flexibility, posture, etc.​

7. Out of love of tango music – it's composition, instruments, sound, textures, etc.​

8. To earn money performing, teaching, organizing, or whatever.​

9. Out of love of Argentine culture and tradition.​

10. To meet potential romantic partners.​

Amazing list. But concerning me, #0 is missing. Tango is the easiest dance to start with.

 

[JournalInTime]

A little surprised “love for dancing” didn’t make it to your list. That is one of primary reasons I found amongst the people that continued dancing beyond beginner’s hell. Some already loved dancing and some fell in love with it.

For me . . . before 2013, dancing wasn't even on my radar. After 2013, tango was on my radar. I didn't move laterally from other dance; relatively few people I know did (yes, that seems odd to me, too). So, while I love to dance tango, I'd consider that to be a consequence of other things I identified, particularly #2, #3, and #4 – getting out, meeting people, and playing – and not an independent item. A bit like how "improvisational creativity" could go on the list, but for me it's already what #1 and #5 mean.

Far more women I know visit BsAs than men and more frequently.

I've had it explained to me: Tourist women get to dance a lot more there, perhaps due to taxi-dancer culture and the historically macho culture there being predisposed to treat women like princesses. As men are expected to navigate "or else" in crowded milongas, tourist men are under way more pressure from local men, and local women are both reluctant to take the risk of dancing with them and discouraged from doing so by their local machos.

 

[JournalInTime]

Amazing list. But concerning me, #0 is missing. Tango is the easiest dance to start with.

Sure, I can believe it is for some. Around here, the number of people who quit for salsa and swing, saying they're easier by far than tango, would mean I'd never put it on my list!

 

[JournalInTime]

If you are indeed dancing in areas with 2:1,3:1, or 5:1 ratio, our Tango experiences will be very different in almost every aspect of its social dynamics. We are living on different planets. I might intellectually process but can’t relate to your experiences!

All I can say is that where I live, it's between 3 women for 2 men and 2 women for 1 man at most milongas, and it can get up to 3 women for 1 man at badly unbalanced ones. I've seen "more men than women," but it's so rare that it's remarkable. Lots of women go to BsAs for this reason alone: They get more tandas.

 

[JournalInTime]

My bottom line is you are vastly underestimating your ability to have understood and broken down the technique, and then able to convey it precisely. You are also underestimating the investment of time and effort you put in to get there. On the other hand you are vastly overestimating ability of the instructors, including so called “maestros” to be able to breakdown and teach technique. I doubt how many of long time instructors and maestros have spend time analyzing, processing, and refining each minor component that goes into attaining a technique, like a scientist would do.

Thanks for the affirmation and adjustment! I think what I'm really saying is, "In my experience, tango learners don't have the patience for a scientist. They come in expecting artists who'll give them feel-good, yes-you-can advice, not analysis, much less correction." I'd have tried teaching a long time ago if I'd met a few tango novices who saw the world analytically already. Most just want to be capable of tango escenario after three weeks.

People mistake simple as easy.

One of my more influential tango teachers started every lesson with: "Remember, simple is not easy!"

It is much easier to make dance look elegant and attractive by using a combination of figures consisting of fast footwork and movements. That is a skill too. But relatively more attainable.

That's the skill learners come hoping to get at once. It's why canned "wedding choreographies" are a bread-and-butter item for our local teachers, and why most people prefer patterns to the toolbox needed for improvisation.

 

[pianistamediano]

For a step, I would describe the process as pushing into the floor with the weight-bearing foot to store energy in preparation for the step, and conveying that preparation by activating (meaning tonus, not tension) the chain of muscles inside your body between the floor and the follower so that the follower feels, "We're about to move." The leg they know to move is perforce the one that's free; you can use the weight change I just described to free the correct leg, and you can free the leg simultaneously with step preparation. The direction of the step is indicated with a torso shift propelled by the floor energy: circular dissociation into slight twist forward on the free side to make the follower step back, circular dissociation into slight twist back on the free side to make the follower step forward, or a continuation of lateral dissociation to make the follower step to the side. Whether you step at the same time, with a delay, or not at all is again for you . . . your step shouldn't force theirs in anything but the longest strides.

This! You've crystalized all I've ever felt before taking a step and tried to explain into explicit words. It's beautiful.

Other leads get fussier: Volcadas involve retreating (or, for back volcadas, advancing) your torso without any step preparation, which is front-back lateral dissociation rather than side-to-side lateral dissociation; you don't really have to step yourself, though that makes it easier and usually looks more dramatic (I lead mini-volcadas from a full stop).

I've done this myself, but like you said, it relies on the follower understanding and executing free leg/weight-bearing leg dynamics well enough, as well as trust in the leader. Some particularly sensitive beginners can do this instinctively, even though they've never even heard of volcadas.

Beginners have to think about it. This why it's so hard for them to be musical (their brain isn't as fast as the music, so their body lags the music and their follower's body really lags the music) and to flow (they can't use the previous movement to prep the next one, like "movement/prep-movement/prep-movement/prep," but have to do "prep-movement-reset-prep-movement-reset," and can't combine things like "free the leg simultaneously with step preparation"). You can explain it all, but it'll seem like a towering mess of complex ideas.

This is why the best teachers know to build up from the simple ("You do this, then this, then this") to the complex ("towering mess of complex ideas") and to the simple (seamlessness?).

As a related concept from a course in mathematical pedagogy that I took, Richard Skemp (1987) suggests that mathematics involves an extensive hierarchy of concepts, with higher tier concepts unable to be fully comprehended or formed until lower tier concepts are understood. More importantly, that there are two types of understanding: relational understanding as “knowing both what to do and why” and instrumental understanding as the ability to execute mathematical rules and procedures.

In tango pedagogy, just to get new students dancing, or some ersatz facsimile resembling dancing, teachers simplify and reduce taking a step (for example) from your description to something like "decide -> prepare -> project intention -> take step". But they remain conscious of most (hopefully all) of what you have described. So it is with beginners; teachers aim to develop instrumental understanding first in order to build the foundations on which beginners are primed for deeper understanding in the hows and whys of dancing; to wit, relational understanding.

The mark of a good teacher is being able to think about what you do automatically and explain it in simple terms to someone who can't do it at all. The fact that I need paragraphs to do this is why I think I'm not ready to be a teacher.

No; the mark of a good teacher is understanding all aspects of something they teach (or everything except the negligible parts, like tiny optimisations), understanding what level of explanation is required for a particular student, and conveying that to them in an efficient manner. I'm sure you realise that throwing all your descriptions at a beginner/improver or even someone who's only been dancing for a year or two is futile; you'd need to simplify. And that isn't even getting into learning styles; words are not as useful for kinaesthetic learners as they are for auditory learners. But for someone like me, this is perfect, because 1. I already have the background and experience in tango to understand and put into practice what you have just written and 2. I've done maths research in university, including literature reviews, which means I am able to quickly and efficiently assimilate large amounts of information and hold multiple complex concepts in my mind simultaneously without frying my brain.

So perhaps an approach you can take is writing down the same thing, but in different levels of simplification. Or deciding on the core concepts, without which a student cannot possibly execute the movement, and slowly building up details. And thinking of different ways to convey them. You have excellent clarity and understanding, so honestly all you need is preparation for different levels and learning styles - which good teachers already do - and the ability to adapt to different students. In all honesty, I'm confident that you're already ready to be a teacher; but there are extra steps to take in order to be a great teacher.

 

[opendoor]

..the number of people who quit for salsa and swing, saying they're easier by far than tango, would mean I'd never put it on my list!

That is interesting because I would assume that salsa or tango are taught the same way in your and in my area. Honestly, I was so soooo frustrated with salsa when I started dancing after my divorce.

The atlantic doesn't make a difference with the basic step, you simply have to be able to hear the clave, and that at 180 bpm. Which tango beginner has to move after 3:3:2 in his first lesson. Even the word comes first after two years.

And the quality of movement is also so much higher in salsa, because arms, legs, hands and head ! move independently of each other, and that in fact controlled. In tango you freeze most of your joints and you are allowed to walk like a zombie: forward, backward, sidestep for three month.

And the most difficult: from the first salsa lesson on you have to pull up the corners of your mouth. In tango you are praised when your facial features slip away. The photo pages on facebook are full of tangueros whose faces take on the most bizarre expressions when they dance.

So, if you really describe salsa as easier, then it's the arrogance of the ignorant speaking (or you likewise want to hide the fact that you've also failed badly back then)