Bad habits?

[ArbeeNYC]

Simplistically, as @JournalInTime said:

I mean, I know the code some, and I'm still not sure whether when an 84-year-old Argentine woman told me, "Tu es un vrai milonguero!" (yes, in French, not Spanish) , she meant "You're a devoted tango dancer," "You're a bum who dances and ogles girls instead of working," or some other thing.

or, in some more detail, here

And, perhaps today, as a perjorative term for the affectation some apply to their dress code and attitude to dancing AT in their perception of the 'one true way', as they hold it was once done in BsAs and ought to be continued forevermore.

Or maybe, outside Argentina, as someone (male or female), who got the AT bug, learnt, and goes to some place for an evening event called a 'milonga' instead of drinking and partying with their mates.

Yes, the old meanings exist in historical reference, but in language new meanings evolve, particularly with loan words, and become common (?) usage.

The definition in the link is incorrect and the problem is that it has been used repeatedly in that incorrect sense. Traditionally, and more accurately, a milonguero is a habitué of the milonga. Someone who went regularly (if not daily) to his local place of dance. It did not originally refer to a way of dancing. It later became associated, by extension, with the kind of dancing practiced in those (mostly) downtown milongas. Learning tango (especially today), dancing tango, dancing traditionally, does not *make* you a milonguero. Let us also be mindful of the fact that, at one time, the word had certain negative connotations. It had nothing to do with dress codes (other than the fact that in the '30s and '40s men customarily wore suits). The term does not exist outside Buenos Aires in any meaningful way. In fact, I don't think it can even be used meaningfully today in B.A., unless you're referring to the older generation of dancers, some of whom still remain.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I think it's a masterfully edited scene, by the way. Omar Vega's space-saving steps or Copello's tracking shot with the cadencia. Simply class.

View attachment 5130

That was the best scene in the movie.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Some use the term to describe a good social dancer, while others consider the milonguero to be the epitome of the bad dancer. But I mean, we've discussed this before, right?

Certainly not in those terms. It's not what the word means or meant, as I have tried to explain above and before, several times.

 

[Brummbaer]

And he also claimed to revive the old "black" tango heritage like soltadas, sacadas, colgadas, volcadas that had disappeared from the dance halls in the 20th century.

Always a good self-marketing strategy, whether he actually did or didn't.

 

[LadyLeader]

I think it is useful to have a loose classification of different looks of tango and nuevo-salong-milonguero is good enough for me. Today the slpit is not anymore about the content but maybe about how frequent some moves are, how tiny or extreme they are presented, how much space the dancers need or how the basic steps are taken and total look of that dance.

I have been working on Achaval/Suares distance courses for two years now and for me they represent tango salong. Now I want to wake up my old nuevo content and have landed on Barrionuevo/Larici videos. For some reason his way of doing steps (for ex rebotes) are triggering the nuevo memories for me. That overall nuevo feeling is a kind of twist because they talk mostly about salong and milonguero.

 

[Bailango]

I think it is useful to have a loose classification of different looks of tango and nuevo-salong-milonguero is good enough for me. Today the slpit is not anymore about the content but maybe about how frequent some moves are, how tiny or extreme they are presented, how much space the dancers need or how the basic steps are taken and total look of that dance.

I have been working on Achaval/Suares distance courses for two years now and for me they represent tango salong. Now I want to wake up my old nuevo content and have landed on Barrionuevo/Larici videos. For some reason his way of doing steps (for ex rebotes) are triggering the nuevo memories for me. That overall nuevo feeling is a kind of twist because they talk mostly about salong and milonguero.

Curious why do you spell salon as salong?

Two points.

As recently six to seven weeks back in a workshop, Achaval/Suarez both dismissed the notion they dance a certain style. When a student questioned distinction between salon and milonguero style with respect to what they were teaching, both took turns to explain not to stick with such labels. According to them, they were doing things and teaching them with certain embrace and positions. Instead of labels they encouraged people to think of how the embrace and position can cause dancers to change the execution of the same movement.

Barrionuevo/Larici video’s labeling of style I strongly disagree with. I think this way of labeling creates confusion. I never learnt what they call as milonguero.giro. Yet it is the most common one that I lead when dancing. When dancing in close embrace I find it to be a natural movement. Most followers are able to do it effortlessly. I doubt all of them learnt it. I think it is natural reaction as my lead turns around. What they label as salon style giro I have learnt multiple times. I lead that one as well. I have to make conscious effort that my lead is correct in how I time it, and maintain my balance+axis. I always feel it is a work in progress. In the video they mention that the salon style giro they are demonstrating is not open embrace. What they say is open embrace, to me is open hold. What they are demonstrating with salon giro, I consider that opening the embrace. That is exactly what they do starting in close embrace and then opening the embrace to do the giro. I assume they will get back into close embrace when they exit the giro. I find it very unfortunate they label the two giros as milonguero style and salon style. They would be better off saying these are two different ways of doing the giro. One is in close embrace without opening up the and the position of lead and follow is as what they go on to describe. The other is opening up the embrace to allow the position of lead and follow to create more room for taking back bigger step.

 

[Tangogal]

If he invented it, he should have filed a patent and collect royalties every time the figure is taught and danced.

You can’t patent movements! I don’t think you can patent choreography either. Who created the forward, side, backwards, choreography of the giro?

 

[Tangogal]

Not an expert by any means but the only things I learned as distinctly “Nuevo” were linear boleos and those suspended half-split things (can’t remember the name of them but Christna and Homer Ladas did them frequently).

Nuevo was an attempt to systemise tango. Hence they (Fabien Salas, Gustavo Naveira, Pablo Veron and Chicho but mostly the first two) came up with the parallel and crossed system terms. They then tried to distill tango down to the most basic elements (the turn and walk) then explore ALL the options from there. As a systemised teaching method it’s leaked across most of modern classes and methods. The most extreme and unusual options like piernazo instead of gancho are labelled as “Nuevo” but that impression mostly came from their shows and demos. I once did a class with Fabien Salas where the leaders were only allowed to lead a back ocho. It was amazing to see how creative everyone became by the end of the lesson.

 

[Rabbit]

As recently six to seven weeks back in a workshop, Achaval/Suarez both dismissed the notion they dance a certain style. When a student questioned distinction between salon and milonguero style with respect to what they were teaching, both took turns to explain not to stick with such labels. According to them, they were doing things and teaching them with certain embrace and positions. Instead of labels they encouraged people to think of how the embrace and position can cause dancers to change the execution of the same movement.

As I said in another thread, I think the idea of dancing some sort of pure tango sub-style is on its way out. I've heard similar things about the styles having become very mixed from several other highly reputed professionals

 

[Tangogal]

All this talk has me itching to get back to regular classes! I have to dig out my practice shoes tomorrow. I caught Covid almost 10 weeks ago and my energy levels are only now approaching normal. And that was a mild dose!

 

[LadyLeader]

Curious why do you spell salon as salong?

Two points.

As recently six to seven weeks back in a workshop, Achaval/Suarez both dismissed the notion they dance a certain style. When a student questioned distinction between salon and milonguero style with respect to what they were teaching, both took turns to explain not to stick with such labels. According to them, they were doing things and teaching them with certain embrace and positions. Instead of labels they encouraged people to think of how the embrace and position can cause dancers to change the execution of the same movement.

Barrionuevo/Larici video’s labeling of style I strongly disagree with. I think this way of labeling creates confusion. I never learnt what they call as milonguero.giro. Yet it is the most common one that I lead when dancing. When dancing in close embrace I find it to be a natural movement. Most followers are able to do it effortlessly. I doubt all of them learnt it. I think it is natural reaction as my lead turns around. What they label as salon style giro I have learnt multiple times. I lead that one as well. I have to make conscious effort that my lead is correct in how I time it, and maintain my balance+axis. I always feel it is a work in progress. In the video they mention that the salon style giro they are demonstrating is not open embrace. What they say is open embrace, to me is open hold. What they are demonstrating with salon giro, I consider that opening the embrace. That is exactly what they do starting in close embrace and then opening the embrace to do the giro. I assume they will get back into close embrace when they exit the giro. I find it very unfortunate they label the two giros as milonguero style and salon style. They would be better off saying these are two different ways of doing the giro. One is in close embrace without opening up the and the position of lead and follow is as what they go on to describe. The other is opening up the embrace to allow the position of lead and follow to create more room for taking back bigger step.

I think the spelling accident is caused by my dyslexia and because the Swedish word salong means salon in Spanish. (non of Swedish, Spanish or English are my mother tongue!)

Today people can check on youtube the way a couple is dancing and then decide if they want to participate in the ws and the labels are maybe not so important anymore. To skip the label could be more attractive for some dancers - they love Achaval/Suares dance but hate tango salon.

When I started to lead the teachers were mostly talking about what step the man should do and it was totally ok with me. They used the word/label as they had always done in class and I knew exactly how to keep my arms and place my feet. The word man was incorrect on me but it communicated a lot of information in 3 letters!

In a same way I feel about milonguero and tango salon - kind of short hand expressions
Milonguero - keep the upper body contact always
Tango salon - open up the abrazo when more space needed, then close it again

 

[Tangogal]

I’ve found that most dancers don’t bother to check out the teachers before taking a workshop! Then get all upset that the class was too hard or too “Nuevo”. If you wanted something less challenging then don’t go to a workshop entitled “unusual ganchos - advanced level” with hotshot teachers that have “former cirque du soleil” in their bio!

 

[Brummbaer]

Who created the forward, side, backwards, choreography of the giro?

That made me smile

A story I was once told (which I don't believe) is that Gerardo Portalea (a master of Villa Urquiza style) was responsible. There was some myth about a challenge of walking around a bell rope (he used to work in a cemetery) and coming up with the giro.

I suspect the giro predates that, but I've not really looked for evidence for or against.

 

[Brummbaer]

I’ve found that most dancers don’t bother to check out the teachers before taking a workshop!

In early days of learning we used to check with an organiser whether we were capable of doing the workshop, but nowadays I'd consider whether or not the workshop added anything. That's not saying I'd avoid something just because we thought we could do that already, but whether the lesson/workshop extended something, or made it better. I'd still do a class on the cross or walking if it was likely to improve that element.

I'd probably be more inclined to check whether they could teach rather than learning some hotshot move.

 

[Rabbit]

You can’t patent movements! I don’t think you can patent choreography either. Who created the forward, side, backwards, choreography of the giro?

Surely the step pattern is derived from folk dance. Someone just curved it into a circle