Bad habits?

[Bailango]

I find that difficult as well. Not impossible but more difficult than when my partner is squarely in front of me. I also find that V-position less comfortable.

I fully agree. Close to third or little over, of the followers force themselves into the right. Not only that now their axis is tilted and not aligned. I am not form of v–embrace. With some followers who choose that it is not possible to discern the weight shifts on their left leg. With some followers it feels like a shopping cart with wheels stuck in a certain direction. You push it expecting to move straight but it goes slightly diagonal.

 

[JournalInTime]

Today the only persons recognized as having knowledge are teachers and I find it problematic. If there were more options/roles people would not necessarily end up labeling themselves as teachers.

Many experienced dancers have a solid knowledge but no recognized channel to pass it to new community members.

I agree.

Noticeably absent in tango is much acknowledgement of what in trades would be the "journeyman" role between "apprentice" and "master" . . . of what in the academy would be the role of a senior graduate student or post-doctoral fellow, wedged in between undergraduate student and professor . . . of what in Japanese martial arts would be the role of a 1st dan, above all kyū but below all other dan, helping out around the dōjō. Such a person may not be trusted by their superiors to supervise or teach formally, but from above they'd be informally expected to assist, and from below they'd enjoy the honest respect of those they help out.

I don't believe this hole is due to the absence of a formal system of teaching grades. I think it has two origins, both fundamentally psychosocial:

1. Often self-appointed masters, wanting to remain aloof and mysterious as the holders of all the "tango secrets" and the only legitimate teachers.
   
   
2. Many ordinary dancers, however new, seeing all other ordinary dancers as "competition" for partners and tandas, rather than as peers to turn to for support and sharing.

In my mind a group of skilled dancers would set up a practica and would take turns in leading a practice session.

When I started tango, I was told that's what prácticas were traditionally: places for the more experienced to share what they know. I think the two factors above interfered with that mission somewhere along the way, as did a third factor:

​

3. People reading "Thou shalt not teach on the milonga floor" as "Thou shalt not teach."​

I wish all those men who give young women "lessons" at the milonga would cut it out and save their impulses for the práctica . . . However, that behavior goes with a personality that believes "I'm so good I don't need to practice." Which almost by definition means they're rotten dancers, because they don't practice . . . so why listen to them?

—

I was fortunate to have started my journey at a studio that used senior students who had been through the studio's level system at least once as accompaniers, and that saw accompaniers who accompanied 20+ hours/week for years as potential teaching assistants who could step in to help teachers with lower-level classes. In that environment, there was an informal acknowledgement that those of us who almost lived at the studio were an asset to beginner and intermediate learners. I was even given keys and alarm codes, and could practice in the studio when there were no classes.

But since that studio closed, I've learned that nobody else around here does this. It was a quirk of that studio owner's view of tango learning, and a credit to her vision.

 

[JournalInTime]

[...] one teacher will tell you that X move is best lead by the Y body part and then demonstrate how Z is bad in a half assed way, and then another teacher will do it vice versa by demonstrating Y half assed and why Z is superior, but the best teachers I’ve been with will show Y and Z can both be performed with good examples of each but they may prefer one over the other in certain situations.

That's very true. When I learned to lead boleos, I was shown three ways:

1. All arms, with the rest of the body rooted in place. This was prefaced and followed by a loud DO NOT DO THIS EVER!!!
2. Torso twist, with the arms moving only because they're attached to the torso, never independently.
3. Checked step momentum, almost entirely from the legs.

The teacher then said #2 or #3 were both accepted, that most of us would switch between them in reality, and that they could be combined . . . just don't do #1. To this day, I lead circular boleos as 50-60% #2 and 40-50% #3, and linear boleos as 100% #3.

 

[Rabbit]

That's very true. When I learned to lead boleos, I was shown three ways:

1. All arms, with the rest of the body rooted in place. This was prefaced and followed by a loud DO NOT DO THIS EVER!!!
2. Torso twist, with the arms moving only because they're attached to the torso, never independently.
3. Checked step momentum, almost entirely from the legs.

The teacher then said #2 or #3 were both accepted, that most of us would switch between them in reality, and that they could be combined . . . just don't do #1. To this day, I lead circular boleos as 50-60% #2 and 40-50% #3, and linear boleos as 100% #3.

There's also:

4. Vertical circle
5. Sharp activation of the standing leg (my favoured mode)

 

[Rabbit]

I don't believe this hole is due to the absence of a formal system of teaching grades. I think it has two origins, both fundamentally psychosocial:

1. Often self-appointed masters, wanting to remain aloof and mysterious as the holders of all the "tango secrets" and the only legitimate teachers.
   
   
2. Many ordinary dancers, however new, seeing all other ordinary dancers as "competition" for partners and tandas, rather than as peers to turn to for support and sharing.

Yeah, I agree with you there. It's inherently competitive at all levels. If finding a reliable dance partner is difficult enough, then finding a trustworthy collaborator of the same role is almost impossible. It doesn't help that just about everyone has an inflated opinion of their own ability.

Fortunately, cross-training is really effective.

 

[Tango Distance]

... Guess who gets invited more? The women who take huge steps and play "the floor is lava." My girlfriend is regularly frustrated by this, because teachers consistently compliment her on her technique but leaders would just as soon dance with a showboat. ...

... But it does feel as though the goal of a lot of dancers at the milonga isn't to dance agreeably within the abrazo this tanda with this person, but to show off the goods to those outside to attract interest for the next tanda with the next person. ...

I thought about other motion hobbies. Many involve big, bold moves. Examples include:

• Wheelies on a motorcycle
• Skiing down a hill rather than walking down it
• Jump on a mountain bike
• Kicking as fast and far as you can in martial arts
• Basketball

While it can be to show off to others, even if no one is watching people often do big and bold moves in a hobby because it is fun. I had an instructor teach this: Don't languidly step in a new direction, "whoosh" into it. I found it is definitely more fun that way!

Being precise and controlled can be fun, too, like archery or flying an airplane.

Some data points: In my little Tangst Desertus area, often almost everyone is dancing and very few are sitting. Often the floor has plenty of room. You see many big, bold, and fast steps... With no audience to appreciate it... Another data point: Last milonga, my dear wife (DW) danced with all 15 leaders, including a visitor who was really good, with fast and big steps. Guess who she raved about being the most fun?

 

[opendoor]

..goal of a lot of dancers at the milonga isn't to dance agreeably within the abrazo this tanda with this person, but to show off..

Exactly, and it's me. I've always felt slowed down in someone's arms. I still prefer to dance solo and freestyle. I also always had enough opportunity to cuddle. What's left then? Showing off and competing.

 

[JournalInTime]

You know, I love showoff stuff when I have the space, and so does my partner! At prácticas, and early on at milongas when nobody else is around, we've been known to dance rapid cadenas, traveling volcadas, doble frente colgadas, piernazos, fully separated soltadas with pencil turns, and even the occasional friccion (toe-tip drag), sentada, or elevacion (lift). It's just that we never do this around people, because it's risky. And as a result, almost nobody sees it.

Maybe I should do this stuff occasionally when there are more witnesses, so that other leaders realize that my partner is fun and capable . . .

 

[JournalInTime]

Exactly, and it's me. I've always felt slowed down in someone's arms. I still prefer to dance solo and freestyle. I also always had enough opportunity to cuddle. What's left then? Showing off and competing.

Well, there's lots of ways to show off: balance, size, speed, strength, . . . I think that precision and control are also things you can show off. It never fails to impress me when a couple dancing so close you can't tell them apart at a distance manages to, say, glide through a cadena with ganchos, making several complete turns in the space of a table. That's a feat of control more than anything else. So I suppose inasmuch as I bother to show off, that's the kind of showoff I want to be.

Take shooting: Are you more impressed by the cowboy shooter who can draw, fire six shots, and reholster so fast you don't see the hand move? The trick shooter who can knock down targets behind their back? The crazy yahoo shooter who can fire a full-powered rifle one-handed, or hit targets with two handguns at once? Or the sharpshooter who calmly sprawls behind a rifle, stares forever, and then hits a target 2,000 metres away? I find the last guy most interesting, but they all have appeal, I suppose.

 

[tangoing]

Tango when danced in open hold is not the same dance. As a leader my whole leading technique has to change. By open hold I am referring to distance of a feet or more better the frames. How I express musicality also changes. A simple example is syncopations. In close embrace it is easy to lead syncopation using your frame or whole torso. In open hold that is not an option. In close embrace there is more connection overall. In the open hold the connection is different. I rarely encounter a follower that wants to dance in open hold. As a leader I let follower select the embrace she wants to dance in.

There are different embraces but I don’t think there are different styles. Type of embrace can dictate and restrict certain movements. That doesn’t make it a different style. Only styles I recognize are show tango, social tango, and neuvo. Open hold is a bit of an aberration unless you want to include elements of neuvo style dancing or show tango. But to socially dance an entire tanda in a wide open hold doesn’t feel like dancing tango to me. On top of that most people who dance open hold are not able to maintain the dance frame and connection the way it is required to dance open.

I have had similar discussions with some of my teachers (who are regarded as top/famous teachers/dancers in US/World) and it's not unanimous that they favor close embrace more, in fact they enjoy both. Obviously when the milonga is packed it defaults to close embrace but they've told me open embrace allows for a lot more opportunity in movement/style, and you also have the option to swap between open/close within the dance too - which is actually what I see often when teachers / high level dancers do in a social / non performance setting and currently what one of the things I'm trying to instill into my own dance (when there's room).

As for different styles, I've heard what you've described but even styles within styles. Like with social tango the movements can be even grouped into milonguero / salon / nuevo, and there's overlap between those three as well.

 

[Mr. Moustachio]

I've often thought, "Tango, not judo!"

Judo! (Screengrab at 3:15 of www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvRTZENtgBk).

 

[tangomaniac]

I know you're right.

And to be fair, that game totally works at the milonga.

Many followers here, I would say most, were taught to dance straight-legged and tall. Every boleo grabs air, every step has a flick, every pasada is stork-legged. Lead a small step and they project a medium one; lead a medium one and they project a large one. It's very much the demonstrative, El Mundial style, which is the rage here.

Guess who gets invited more? The women who take huge steps and play "the floor is lava." My girlfriend is regularly frustrated by this, because teachers consistently compliment her on her technique but leaders would just as soon dance with a showboat.

But it does feel as though the goal of a lot of dancers at the milonga isn't to dance agreeably within the abrazo this tanda with this person, but to show off the goods to those outside to attract interest for the next tanda with the next person.

I was taught to lead with big steps to solidify the lead. The follower can collect easier because the feet are separated after the step. Followers have tripped over their feet because of small steps, especially in ochos.

As for showing off the goods, nothing wrong with that. A follower is like a passenger in a car. Every now and then, the follower wants to drive. I give women the opportunity to play with the music. The music is like a roller coaster - - without the nausea. When the music reaches a climax, perfect time for a lot of energy for a boleo. Some women add a flick. My signature move is at the end of the dance, a boleo followed by leg wrap. The wrap is on the last note so the leg should stay wrapped. I feel a release of energy.

Women want a chance to express their individuality, their personality, in the dance. Some men are afraid of independent women and think "lead and follow" is "domination and submission."

"Showing off the goods" can look lousy when the leader forces the woman through figures. Her facial expression tells the story. Otherwise, don't hold the woman back and let her enjoy the dance!

 

[Rabbit]

As for different styles, I've heard what you've described but even styles within styles. Like with social tango the movements can be even grouped into milonguero / salon / nuevo, and there's overlap between those three as well.

Yeah I wish people would just drop the whole milonguero/salon/nuevo classification, it's just confusing these days when people do "milonguero" close embrace with boleos and ganchos, and "salon" can be more or less anything.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Today the only persons recognized as having knowledge are teachers and I find it problematic. If there were more options/roles people would not necessarily end up labeling themselves as teachers.

Many experienced dancers have a solid knowledge but no recognized channel to pass it to new community members.

Exactly. Sometimes, if you are friends with one of them, you can actually ask for tips. Most are happy to help.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

It gives a wrong impression to say you lead with legs and arm. It gives an impression of arm leading. I think what you meant is that more connection is conveyed through arms and leg movements.

Yes, well, they still have to follow your torso, but when you are open like that (watch Chicho, for example), there's a lot going on with the rest of the body and those other parts are at work as well as your torso. It's a much different connection and it is certainly not an abrazo. Traditional AT is quiet, nuevo is not, as well as lending itself to much larger movements.