Ballroom style

[Zoopsia59]

Any follower past a certain level can dance any style of embrace. She might not necessarily enjoy it as much, but the general follower technique would hold true for all styles.

In the same vein, if a leader is taught the same way, to be accepting rather than close-minded, they can adapt to any style as well. If anything I think THIS should be the standard in AT... a teaching method rather than a body diagram. Just like learning improvisation is better than learning patterns, learning to follow/match a partner and change the embrace depending on the person you are dancing with is superior to learning one way to do the embrace.

I agree that being open minded and learning to adapt to various partners is a good thing (and other stuff you said in the 2nd paragraph). However, I disagree that being "past a certain level" as a follower automatically means being proficient in any embrace... Or perhaps we have a different definition of what level one needs tobe "past".

I consider myself a fairly capable AT follower and yet I find a pronounced V embrace quite difficult. It's not just a case of varying enjoyment.. I actually become awkward and inadequate in a V with my head turned dramatically to my right. It's VERY different from dancing milonguero where "behind me" is at the back of my head.

Yes, basic follower techniques are still in play, but my entire orientation to my partner is different. What my brain considers "back" is now in a different direction from the orientation of my head, and even my body. Dancing with your hips perpendicular to the line of dance is not the same as dancing with your hips at a diagonal to the LOD.

I can't stress enough just how much changes to be oriented to your partner and the LOD at a different angle. It's actually (with my limited experience of BR) even more different to move that way than to be in a BR hold vs a milonguero AT hold, both of which square off to the partner and LOD in a similar relationship. A great deal of follower technique involves maintaining the relationship to the leader. You can become quite good at dancing in one relationship (ie: square) and still have trouble adapting to a completely different relationship (ie: 45 degree angle)

I think it's true to say that most (but probably not ALL) followers "past a certain level" COULD learn (with time investment) to follow in any embrace. But I don't think it's true that being past a certain level means that they automatically have... unless being able to do so is part of your definition of being "past a certain level".

 

[Zoopsia59]

the follower role promotes learning to adapt, and there's no reason leaders can't learn the same lesson.

I agree with this

If there was some attempt to standardize the teaching of the embrace, looking at the commonalities across all the styles and combining them would be the way to go.

I don't agree with this, but I may misunderstand what you are saying... Combine the styles? You mean find a middle ground and mush them together so there's only one?

 

[Subliminal]

Why would that be the way to go? Standardization is the same as homogenization. It makes everything the same and reduces individuality. I don't think that is what AT is all about.

I don't necessarily think it would be easy. Or even possible. I am just entertaining the possibilities since the subject was raised.

 

[Subliminal]

I consider myself a fairly capable AT follower and yet I find a pronounced V embrace quite difficult. It's not just a case of varying enjoyment.. I actually become awkward and inadequate in a V with my head turned dramatically to my right. It's VERY different from dancing milonguero where "behind me" is at the back of my head.

I think it's true to say that most (but probably not ALL) followers "past a certain level" COULD learn (with time investment) to follow in any embrace. But I don't think it's true that being past a certain level means that they automatically have... unless being able to do so is part of your definition of being "past a certain level".

Hmm, well, I don't have much exposure to the V. It doesn't seem to have caught on around here, or maybe I just haven't noticed it. A few teachers that have come through use it, but the ones I am familiar with in the local area mostly teach apilado as the close embrace, then opening up the arms if you want to do something bigger.

I think my point is getting lost. I wish I had just made the statement differently. "I have observed that the followers that I consider the most proficient in my geographical area are capable of adapting to any embrace offered by a leader within my geographical area. It follows that it is possible for one person to adapt to many styles."

Better?

 

[Subliminal]

I don't agree with this, but I may misunderstand what you are saying... Combine the styles? You mean find a middle ground and mush them together so there's only one?

Not really. It's more like... the difference between making a math student memorize all the formulas vs teaching them logic and critical thinking.

The only way I could see to standardize tango without losing the core of it is to come up with a method that allows the student to derive their own dance from the common principles. Which common principles? Well, all of them. Yes, some of them conflict. That's why the student eventually has to choose which ones to follow...

 

[Zoopsia59]

The only way I could see to standardize tango without losing the core of it is to come up with a method that allows the student to derive their own dance from the common principles. Which common principles? Well, all of them. Yes, some of them conflict. That's why the student eventually has to choose which ones to follow...

Doesn't that imply that it isn't standardized? If principles conflict and students have to decide between conflicting principles to follow whichever one suits them, that's the opposite of standardization, no matter what "method" of teaching the stuff you come up with.

 

[Zoopsia59]

H the V. It doesn't seem to have caught on around here, ... "I have observed that the followers that I consider the most proficient in my geographical area are capable of adapting to any embrace offered by a leader within my geographical area. It follows that it is possible for one person to adapt to many styles."

Better?

Yes... If the V isn't really a part of the list of "styles" you are referring to, then it makes more sense. For me (and this is totally subjective and other followers may have different perspective) dancing squared off to each other in CE is more similar to doing the same in OE, than dancing CE squared off is similar to CE in a V.

For me, it's not about the distance from the partner, it's about the position (and angle) relative to the partner. Shared weight is different from standing on your own balance, but since even OE nuevo dancers do volcadas, shared weight isn't all that alien even for those who don't dance apilado regularly.

There are some changes the follower has to make in how she executes certain moves like ochos and molinete in an apilado/milonguero embrace compared to OE, nuevo, or what's now popularly (and incorrectly) called "salon". But for me, the transition to a pronounced V embrace with my head facing right changes everything, not just the technique involved for a few specific moves based on a the changed principle of crossing instead of pivoting.

 

[Subliminal]

Doesn't that imply that it isn't standardized? If principles conflict and students have to decide between conflicting principles to follow whichever one suits them, that's the opposite of standardization, no matter what "method" of teaching the stuff you come up with.

That's the problem isn't it? I think if there's an answer, it's that you can come up with a standard teaching method for tango, but you can't really standardize the movements.

 

[salthepal]

Is it a given that "VU embrace" is an open V hold? I've been watching a lot videos of dancers typically referred to as VU (examples include, but are not limited to, Dante Sanchez & Angelica Avalos, Jorge Dispari & La Turca, Sebastian Jimenez & Maria Ines Bogado) , but I'm seeing a lot of chest-to-chest, cheek-to-cheek when they're in close embrace. It seems to me that the defining characteristic is the opening and closing of the embrace in conjunction with the upright posture and long steps, rather than just the open V hold/embrace ... Although, the fact that Carlos & Rosa Perez dance in an open V does undermine my argument.

 

[Subliminal]

Is it a given that "VU embrace" is an open V hold? I've been watching a lot videos of dancers typically referred to as VU (examples include, but are not limited to, Dante Sanchez & Angelica Avalos, Jorge Dispari & La Turca, Sebastian Jimenez & Maria Ines Bogado) , but I'm seeing a lot of chest-to-chest, cheek-to-cheek when they're in close embrace. It seems to me that the defining characteristic is the opening and closing of the embrace in conjunction with the upright posture and long steps, rather than just the open V hold/embrace ... Although, the fact that Carlos & Rosa Perez dance in an open V does undermine my argument.

I don't even know. From what I understand, VU is just a marketing label, and isn't really standardized either. I think I've seen the same thing you have, some of those who use the label use the V, others don't.

 

[tangotime]

Did he pay Billy Strayhorn a royalty for pinching the lyrics from Eliington's 1931 hit 'It Don't Mean a Thing ...'?

I think Billy made enough from the number of times that was played socially for Q/step and in comps. !

 

[JohnEm]

Going back:

My point was there are less differences between the styles than people suggest, and if you approach tango looking for the simularities rather than the differences you can dance with anyone if you choose to.

. . . . . . you have your point of view and I have mine.

I agree with this:

I agree, and I have tried to extend my own ability to adapt, to a point. Beyond that, I am the leader and my partner is the follower. I do not imply any hierarchy. The roles are equal but different.

Have said something similar and more about participation and involvement
to confused followers who are struggling in classes being told and shown
rather than by dancing and then make attempts with other beginners.

And this:

Why would that be the way to go? Standardization is the same as homogenization. It makes everything the same and reduces individuality. I don't think that is what AT is all about.

 

[Peaches]

Yes... If the V isn't really a part of the list of "styles" you are referring to, then it makes more sense. For me (and this is totally subjective and other followers may have different perspective) dancing squared off to each other in CE is more similar to doing the same in OE, than dancing CE squared off is similar to CE in a V.

For me, it's not about the distance from the partner, it's about the position (and angle) relative to the partner. Shared weight is different from standing on your own balance, but since even OE nuevo dancers do volcadas, shared weight isn't all that alien even for those who don't dance apilado regularly.

There are some changes the follower has to make in how she executes certain moves like ochos and molinete in an apilado/milonguero embrace compared to OE, nuevo, or what's now popularly (and incorrectly) called "salon". But for me, the transition to a pronounced V embrace with my head facing right changes everything, not just the technique involved for a few specific moves based on a the changed principle of crossing instead of pivoting.

See, and I just don't find them to be all that different. Shrug. Not comfort-wise, not ease-wise...not really even technique-wise. (Granted, the last could be on account of my own crappy blending of techniques, but still.) Guys around here tend to be primarily shoulders-parallel, but they tend to lead a blend of movements--crossed-back molinetes but pivoting ochos, for example. I've just never really thought about it much--my lessons would tend to move between open, V, parallel w/o weight sharing, and parallel w/ weight sharing, so all of the various styles just seem...equally normal.

 

[rbazsz]

Argentine tango, ballroom style:

[yt]GADaAmhZ8JY[/yt]

In my opinion, the perfect style. And they're just kids

There should be a minimum age for Tango, maybe 16. Watching this is too much like child porno -- and the kids are good only if their young age is considered.

 

[newbie]

Is it a given that "VU embrace" is an open V hold?

The only given about VU is that is does not exist. If you like acronyms then you may try the CR (Carlos & Rosa) embrace.