Biit
- Thread starter salthepal
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tangomonkey
Active Member
In the right time and place I could prove it, in my case. This forum is a hopelessly inadequate format for presentation of musical analysis. In a face-to-face discussion, with scores and audio samples readily available, I would have little difficulty convincing any reasonably open-minded person of this claim.
Quite simply, by asking them to tell me everything they can about what they hear.
No. A classical composer or orchestra conductor or professional classical musician will quite likely leave me in the dust. That is, for music I have not studied, that very likely will not be the case for music I have studied. And they didn't get there without serious study of scores - thousands of them.
I am not making a personal boast here (it might come across that way but that is not my intention). Will analytical study of a score and an analytical listening to its performance provide a deeper, more comprehensive understanding and appreciation of that specific piece of music? Without question and with absolute certainty, with the caveat that the person doing the analysis is competent to do so. The point is so fundamentally obvious I honestly cannot comprehend the resistance.
I do not consider Stevie Wonder's music worth listening to. Sorry, just my opinion of course and I do not mean to offend any of his fans.
It is coming across that way, (at least to me).
If you think my question was about his music/recordings, then we are not communicating, thus I'll bow out of the discussion.
tangomonkey
Active Member
Sorry, dchester, I truly do not mean it like that. I know of no other way to say what I know. I am expressing deeply held opinions acquired through effort, over many years. I am not saying anything that the majority of trained (classical) musicians would find much to argue with.
And I know what the Stevie Wonder question means. I just won't get into a discussion bout it. Sorry!
Peaches
Well-Known Member
tango monkey said:
well, of course if you're talking about someone who is sufficiently trained getting more out of reading the score. And this is relevant to this discussion and this thread and the general question of "is it tango" and most tango dancers ...how? Without a solid grounding in music, which most people neither have nor seem to want to acquire, it is pointless, if not actually unhelpful. I would gather that the resistance around here is coming from the fact that most people thought we were talking about most tango dancers, not highly trained musicians.
Oh, and quite possibly reacting to the impression of astounding arrogance that comes across in your posts, to say nothing of the outright rudeness of at least one post.
tangomonkey
Active Member
I have merely responded to what has been posted and asked of me. I am neither boastful nor arrogant and apologize to those who read me that way.
But I will not idly sit and read repeated slams against me either. There are reasons I posted the "outright rude" post. Reasons I will not get into. The post is directed at one individual and one individual only. I have no difficulty accepting differences of opinion. But when there are continuous mis-representation of my points I grow weary and seek a conclusion.
I suspect what you are saying is correct but not once in the above post have you mentioned anything about dancing. Personally, I am not sure that it will have the effect on a persons dancing that I think you are trying to advocate, which I think is what some others are trying to get across.
In addition I wonder how much effort goes into obtaining the knowledge to do this analysis and then to actually do it and wonder whether that effort would be better spent on improving your personal dance technique skills.
Don't get me wrong I have attended a number of lectures on musical analysis and I am sure it has helped my dancing. However this is only part of an overall picture of things which has helped me and the musical analysis is only a small part.
In my opinion and I think I am taking a different tack to some others I am not sure that this deep understanding of a piece of music will relate into a bettter dance performance. I agree a degree of music knowledge would be be helpful but beyond that I think this deeper knowledge may get in the way of the dance.
I think the point is not whether or not you liked his music but rather he had a feel for the music.
In my experience TM and I am coming from from the point of view of lack of formal knowledge, by not having it I feel it affects my confidence in some situations. I think this is probabally the bit that is key for you. The confidence it probabally gives you when dancing, rather than the actual knowledge itself.
tangomonkey
Active Member
This discussion has taken an interesting turn, and I hope it won't surprise anyone if I decline the demand that I demonstrate my musicological skills to the satisfaction of some self-appointed expert, and in another thread, if you please.
I have no interest in continuing this discussion, and hurling insults around. I am not the first person to observe that the excruciating detail (not my words) of someone's analysis of a particular piece that I dared to mention myself appears to have nothing whatever to offer to a dancer considering how to respond to the music in a musical way through dance. That would be the beginning and the end of my interest. As for the rest - good grief, the less said the better.
I have no interest in continuing this discussion, and hurling insults around. I am not the first person to observe that the excruciating detail (not my words) of someone's analysis of a particular piece that I dared to mention myself appears to have nothing whatever to offer to a dancer considering how to respond to the music in a musical way through dance. That would be the beginning and the end of my interest. As for the rest - good grief, the less said the better.
tangomonkey
Active Member
Statements were made which I found very inaccurate. I called you on it. Not very nicely, and I do apologize for that. But not for the "call" itself.
To UKDancer and everyone else:
It has been my stated goal at the outset of the El Choclo thread (and here and there within it) to learn the piece intimately, through study of the music and a few interpretations, and to then take that knowledge and dance. To see how - or if - it makes a difference. Nothing more or nothing less. I'm almost there with my bit. The actual dancing points and discussion I'll leave mostly to others.
I simply intended to offer some expertise I have (NOT A BOAST) to the membership in the hope the info. would be of some value. I understand there is more info. there than (some) people want to read and digest. I get carried away with detail sometimes (all the time?), but that is because of enthusiasm and the enjoyment I get from the work. Hopefully the thread will shift to dancing now that the musical analysis is essentially done, but that is up to others more than me.
Maybe this post should not be in this thread. Sorry - just want to clear the air...
OK - apology accepted; and at the risk of boring everyone (you don't have to read on, you know ...), I'll illustrate just one major difference between D'Arienzo's 1937 & 1954 recordings of El Choclo that would be of considerable significance to a dancer. And I'll even do it in the El Choclo thread.
So I'm done, here. Really.
I, for one, with a number of years of tango dancing, found those excruciating details quite interesting, and I did actively think about how to change my dance to be able to incorporate some of them. Maybe others don't need the analytical framework to make such structural differences conscious for themselves, or maybe they don't think that making them conscious and articulate actually helps, but it did help me.
I'd encourage tangomonkey to continue his quest in that thread, and others who don't find it helpful to simply refrain from reading it.
tangomonkey
Active Member
Oh my , what have I started? 
FWIW, I don't read sheet music and will therefore never achieve a high level understanding of the music as would a professional musicians. But I think it's a fallacy to suggest that a trained musician will be a better dancer than a non-musician (if that is at all an argument made by anyone in this thread). A casual reader might not appreciate Shakespeare on any level as a comparative literature professor, but that doesn't mean they won't appreciate the beauty of the words or the stories.
When I dance I don't focus as much on the intricacies of the composition; I focus more on what emotional responses they generate in me. Which is why I typically don't enjoy it when DJs play Astor Piazzolla. The music is brilliant of course, in ways I can't even describe. But does it inspire me to dance? Not very much. That was what I had in mind when I posted the OP.
FWIW, I don't read sheet music and will therefore never achieve a high level understanding of the music as would a professional musicians. But I think it's a fallacy to suggest that a trained musician will be a better dancer than a non-musician (if that is at all an argument made by anyone in this thread). A casual reader might not appreciate Shakespeare on any level as a comparative literature professor, but that doesn't mean they won't appreciate the beauty of the words or the stories.
When I dance I don't focus as much on the intricacies of the composition; I focus more on what emotional responses they generate in me. Which is why I typically don't enjoy it when DJs play Astor Piazzolla. The music is brilliant of course, in ways I can't even describe. But does it inspire me to dance? Not very much. That was what I had in mind when I posted the OP.
Subliminal
Well-Known Member
In regards to the original post, I think sometimes tango is is taken way too seriously on this forum. My first teacher plays almost entirely traditional music at her milonga, but once or twice during the evening she throws in a Swing/Salsa/Bachata/Cha Cha tanda. People either sit out, or dance, or laughingly go out and fake it as best they can. She also plays a couple of the more melodic electric tango sets during the evening. And at the very end, usually ends the dance with a chacarera. This is how she said the milongas she grew up with were like. They were social neighborhood gatherings. Some people would just go to eat, or drink, or hang out with their friends... not even dancing.
Given that this was my first impression of what tango and a milonga are supposed to be like, it boggles my mind how people look for a rigid definition of what tango is. Tango is people getting together and dancing because dancing is FUN. Tango is living. Tango is what the community dances. And now that community includes the world.
Rather than ask "but is it tango" why not ask, "Why doesn't the community do a better job in policing bad dancers? Why don't people get involved in DJing rather than complain about what music is played?"
Given that this was my first impression of what tango and a milonga are supposed to be like, it boggles my mind how people look for a rigid definition of what tango is. Tango is people getting together and dancing because dancing is FUN. Tango is living. Tango is what the community dances. And now that community includes the world.
Rather than ask "but is it tango" why not ask, "Why doesn't the community do a better job in policing bad dancers? Why don't people get involved in DJing rather than complain about what music is played?"