Block, Cross & the Hesitation Therein...

[Br0nze]

Earlier this evening I had the chance to partake in my first ever Argentine Tango lesson. I do not presume to even begin to understand the dance and its intricacies, but I do have a question in regard to several things, one of them being the hesitation that seems to occur during The Cross (as I believe it is called).

How long is the pause there? I arrived at the consensus that it lasts as long as you need it to but not as long as you want it to, only to be informed that it can indeed last as long as you want it to. Is this so, and furthermore, is it a hesitation every time? I assume it is since time must be alloted to replace the weight, but perhaps more advanced Argentine Tango-ers are more skilled with it and thus require less time?

Also, along the same line, in the Block, I was told that one should aim for the in-step of the lady's foot so as to let her know the block is occurring and she is not to go into the Cross. Since Argentine Tango is danced in an ridiculously tilted hold, does the hold allow for the "ronde action" to always hit the in-step or is it possible for miscommunication to occur?

I will say that Argentine Tango seems a lot better than Ballroom Tango, and a great deal more intricate and open to interpratation music wise and step wise... as I believe it evolves and changes almost on a daily basis (?). The leading is very different, from what I gather, so along the line of general questions I have is how is it led, if the arms are useless and one is in "practice hold" as opposed to the Argentine embrace the Tango is so well known for (and for that matter, how does one lead in the hold as is, and is it different from Ballroom Leading)?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can provide answers, and I hope there isn't a thread as general as this already made... :?

 

[Mladenac]

first class and cross

it seems that you are male

for a while you will need to feel change of weight and practice that.
Go to front and side and add changing weight, to a beat, slow beat, double beat.
And you may go faster or slower depending on the musicality.
Figures are not so important in tango, musicality is.

I hope you were doing that cross in parallel system (easier for beginners).
And the feeling of changing weight is accentuated.
Now you are going on a beat, later you can go through a cross on slow beat, or double beat.
And when you will learn cross system walking it would be easier to do it.

It is a little unclear about the embrace.
Are you doing in close or open embrace?
I know that close is usual for AT, but beginners should first learn open because it is easier and more forgiving that close one.

It does not need to step in the partner line. You will learn later that you can go in one position from many elements and go out that position using many elements, but you must keep the flow (circular or linear), or break one and start a new one.
(i believe that this is to abstract for now)

All communication is done with torso and with line of movement.
You will learn all that gradually.

"Learning tango is an endless road"

 

[Me]

Welcome to the DF, and welcome to tango!

I really wish I were there for you right now. To cross or not to cross is so simple when danced, regardless of style. Basically, you as a leader ask yourself two questions:

1. Do I give the lady room to cross?
2. Do I give the lady time to cross?

If your instructor has not answered these two questions, find another one. I'm sorry if that sounds judgemental or elitist. I have found over time that the more complicated or vague the answer is, the less knowledgeable or begrudging the instructor is. Either (or both) serve me no purpose.

We've all been there. (Trust me!)

Earlier this evening I had the chance to partake in my first ever Argentine Tango lesson. I do not presume to even begin to understand the dance and its intricacies, but I do have a question in regard to several things, one of them being the hesitation that seems to occur during The Cross (as I believe it is called).

How long is the pause there? I arrived at the consensus that it lasts as long as you need it to but not as long as you want it to, only to be informed that it can indeed last as long as you want it to. Is this so, and furthermore, is it a hesitation every time? I assume it is since time must be alloted to replace the weight, but perhaps more advanced Argentine Tango-ers are more skilled with it and thus require less time?

Also, along the same line, in the Block, I was told that one should aim for the in-step of the lady's foot so as to let her know the block is occurring and she is not to go into the Cross. Since Argentine Tango is danced in an ridiculously tilted hold, does the hold allow for the "ronde action" to always hit the in-step or is it possible for miscommunication to occur?

I will say that Argentine Tango seems a lot better than Ballroom Tango, and a great deal more intricate and open to interpratation music wise and step wise... as I believe it evolves and changes almost on a daily basis (?). The leading is very different, from what I gather, so along the line of general questions I have is how is it led, if the arms are useless and one is in "practice hold" as opposed to the Argentine embrace the Tango is so well known for (and for that matter, how does one lead in the hold as is, and is it different from Ballroom Leading)?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can provide answers, and I hope there isn't a thread as general as this already made... :?

 

[bastet]

Earlier this evening I had the chance to partake in my first ever Argentine Tango lesson. I do not presume to even begin to understand the dance and its intricacies, but I do have a question in regard to several things, one of them being the hesitation that seems to occur during The Cross (as I believe it is called).

How long is the pause there? I arrived at the consensus that it lasts as long as you need it to but not as long as you want it to, only to be informed that it can indeed last as long as you want it to. Is this so, and furthermore, is it a hesitation every time? I assume it is since time must be alloted to replace the weight, but perhaps more advanced Argentine Tango-ers are more skilled with it and thus require less time?

Also, along the same line, in the Block, I was told that one should aim for the in-step of the lady's foot so as to let her know the block is occurring and she is not to go into the Cross. Since Argentine Tango is danced in an ridiculously tilted hold, does the hold allow for the "ronde action" to always hit the in-step or is it possible for miscommunication to occur?

I will say that Argentine Tango seems a lot better than Ballroom Tango, and a great deal more intricate and open to interpratation music wise and step wise... as I believe it evolves and changes almost on a daily basis (?). The leading is very different, from what I gather, so along the line of general questions I have is how is it led, if the arms are useless and one is in "practice hold" as opposed to the Argentine embrace the Tango is so well known for (and for that matter, how does one lead in the hold as is, and is it different from Ballroom Leading)?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can provide answers, and I hope there isn't a thread as general as this already made... :?

You learned the crusada AND a parada (foot stop) on day one?

Well, I suppose it's possible but there's a few people who might give you chapter and verse as to why that might not be the best idea for starting out (and unfortunately, I'd be one of those people).

I can certainly understand you desire to hop right in and learn things tht you may have seen that look "cool", but IMO, it's a little like forgetting the main dish and going straight to dessert there's so many fundamental elements that at least to me seem to have been left at the wayside if they are actually starting a class day one with crusadas and paradas.

If your class is focused on pattern learning then I am not at all surprised you are having trouble figuring out how the "lead" works. At least IMO, the main focus of a beginner set should be partner connection and understanding how lead and follow work in their very fundamental form.

As for "ridiculously tilted" in the hold, some people would also say the same of ballroom, in the other direction. You may want to make sure you have a teacher who really understands how connection, embrace and lead and follow work in AT because it isn't "ridiculously tilted". It's really easy for people to see something in AT, think they understand what it is they are seeing based on the visual, and then (much) later, find out that was not correct.

Good luck- maybe someone else has an easier answer for you, but IMO the subtleties involved in the crusada and in foot stops isn't really a day one beginner topic.

 

[bastet]

first class and cross


for a while you will need to feel change of weight and practice that.
Go to front and side and add changing weight, to a beat, slow beat, double beat.
And you may go faster or slower depending on the musicality.
Figures are not so important in tango, musicality is.



"Learning tango is an endless road"

what they said- fundamental element IMO

 

[Subliminal]

Also, along the same line, in the Block, I was told that one should aim for the in-step of the lady's foot so as to let her know the block is occurring and she is not to go into the Cross. Since Argentine Tango is danced in an ridiculously tilted hold, does the hold allow for the "ronde action" to always hit the in-step or is it possible for miscommunication to occur?

I think I understand what you're talking about... you are talking about preventing the cross, not a parada, right? I don't think I was ever taught that as a specific move. Just when you're walking on the inside, stepping beside her foot keeps her from crossing. Along with the "intent" to keep walking and not crossing, and staying centered with your partner. Just practice walking on the inside with someone if you can. If you're bending way out of shape to touch her foot, you might be walking too far away or something.

I'm not sure what you mean by a ridiculously tilted hold or "ronde action". The hold should feel somewhat natural and unstrained if you're doing it right.

 

[bastet]

I'm not sure what you mean by a ridiculously tilted hold or "ronde action". The hold should feel somewhat natural and unstrained if you're doing it right.

I'm guessing it means they are connected more up top than down at the pelvis level like in ballroom....still...it isn't tilted...as you say, it's fairly natural when done right.

 

[bastet]

I think I understand what you're talking about... you are talking about preventing the cross, not a parada, right? I don't think I was ever taught that as a specific move. Just when you're walking on the inside, stepping beside her foot keeps her from crossing. Along with the "intent" to keep walking and not crossing, and staying centered with your partner. Just practice walking on the inside with someone if you can. If you're bending way out of shape to touch her foot, you might be walking too far away or something.

I'm not sure what you mean by a ridiculously tilted hold or "ronde action". The hold should feel somewhat natural and unstrained if you're doing it right.

there's also more than one way to lead a cross. if you are using torso rotation to lead a cross, then not rotating it while walking outside partner also shouldn't cause a cross (most people are taught to memorize the two-steps-outside-then-cross axiom, so this can be a can of worms). that was actually how I first learned it.

 

[Subliminal]

there's also more than one way to lead a cross. if you are using torso rotation to lead a cross, then not rotating it while walking outside partner also shouldn't cause a cross (most people are taught to memorize the two-steps-outside-then-cross axiom, so this can be a can of worms). that was actually how I first learned it.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. I was taught that it's lead, not part of a pattern. But I was also told to block with the foot anyway in case my partner wasn't taught the same way. Eliminates confusion, and I guess set me up for learning the parada at that point too.

 

[Mladenac]

about pausing in tango

you pause like the music, you cannot rush if the music is slow,
and to go slow if music is fast

those are the basics that you skipped.

and again about posture:
i had difficulties to make a cross in open embrace, and close embrace is different experience.
And cross in close using cross system on double beat is awesome.

 

[Heather2007]

How long is the pause there? I arrived at the consensus that it lasts as long as you need it to but not as long as you want it to, only to be informed that it can indeed last as long as you want it to.

Correct. And as a leader you do have that artistic right make it (any move) last as long you want it to. The error comes when the follower can feel that you're "hesitating" because you are lost as to what to do next. In time, you will discover that there are so many moves that can be led before or after a cross and so the speed of which it is led will be dictated by this - along with the music of course.

Do spend much time learning the walk. Heaps of time in a beginner's class should be invested in this. (It may seem boring, but a great end pay off). Do ensure that this is being taught and that you are practicing (only) this on your own time too.

We've all been there. (Trust me!)

I didn't. But I guess I was fortunate in that I spent over a year with my (wonderful, gifted) first teacher in a very small class approximately 5 people. So plenty of personal attention time.

 

[Mladenac]

There is no pause, or stop in the cross, you always move.
rotating torso, and shifting weight of partner, maybe your if you are in parallel system.

when you practice walking try to be smooth as much as you can.
first forward and then combining sides.

practice dissociation of torso from lower part of body and moving forward
and imagine that you go by your partners side.

The biggest problem at beginning of dancing tango is body dissociation.

cross and parada are not important at all.

 

[Peaches]

There is no pause, or stop in the cross, you always move.

I'm sorry, but as this is written, I cannot agree. The cross can pause before, during or after, depending on how it is led. Or, it can not be completed and be turned into something else, instead.

As for the OP:

I agree with a lot of other posters in that I'm not so sure learning the cross and parada (foot stop) is truly appropriate for a first class. I'd caution you to make sure you're learning from a teacher who truly knows AT, and not ballroom tango with an AT flair thing thrown in now and again. (It happens.) That said...you already did take a class (would I be right in guessing that it's a group class?), and you already have found a teacher. While we could say that other things would have been better to teach on Day One, they weren't, so I'm a fan of dealing with the here-and-now.

So...with the caveat that I'm not a leader...or a teacher...

How long is the pause there? I arrived at the consensus that it lasts as long as you need it to but not as long as you want it to, only to be informed that it can indeed last as long as you want it to. Is this so, and furthermore, is it a hesitation every time? I assume it is since time must be alloted to replace the weight, but perhaps more advanced Argentine Tango-ers are more skilled with it and thus require less time?

Yup. It can pretty much happen with any timing you want. I'm not sure exactly where you're thinking of the pause being (before, during, after?), but like pretty much everything in AT, the timing is almost completely variable and up to the whim of the leader. It does not have to be a hesitation every time. (I hesitate to use the term "hesitation," since to me it implies being unsure of what to lead next. You need to be sure in your lead. If you want to pause, that's fine. ) I'm not so sure it's tied to allowing time to replace weight. I generally don't think of that taking all that long. It has to do, IME, with the music and floorcraft mostly. But again, it would be helpful to know just at what point of the cross you're encountering this pause.

Also, along the same line, in the Block, I was told that one should aim for the in-step of the lady's foot so as to let her know the block is occurring and she is not to go into the Cross. Since Argentine Tango is danced in an ridiculously tilted hold, does the hold allow for the "ronde action" to always hit the in-step or is it possible for miscommunication to occur?

The Block is, technically, called a parada. Now about your questions...I really don't know what to tell you. None of what your written seems to make sense to me. I can see "aiming for her instep," if only that it beats aiming for her toes...I guess. But I don't see how that translates to lettingher know a block is occurring. I know a parada is happening because I feel the leader's foot against mine. That, so far as I've always understood it, is the parada. It's a foot stop. I feel his foot against mine, I don't move that foot except to keep contact with his; I don't move it away, and as always, I don't change my weight unless he tells me to. It's a pause button, sort of. (You can do fun things with it, but that's another story altogether.) So...I'd hesitate to associate it with the cross, and telling the lady to cross or not. Lead a cross, and she should cross; don't lead one and she shouldn't...a parada doesn't indicate that one way or another.

Furthermore...if you're thinking the hold is "ridiculously tilted" you're not doing it correctly and/or you're not being taught correctly. I won't say that beginners shouldn't learn in close embrace--since I did. But it's not tilted in the least. Find a different teacher or take a private lesson if that's what you're getting from it. Also...what "ronde action?" I don't know of a ronde action happening, either separately or in conjunction with a parada, at all in AT...unless a gent is doing something like that as an embelishment. As to the hold and allowing room...done correctly, you have all the room you need. There's actually more there than you might think.

I will say that Argentine Tango seems a lot better than Ballroom Tango, and a great deal more intricate and open to interpratation music wise and step wise... as I believe it evolves and changes almost on a daily basis (?). The leading is very different, from what I gather, so along the line of general questions I have is how is it led, if the arms are useless and one is in "practice hold" as opposed to the Argentine embrace the Tango is so well known for (and for that matter, how does one lead in the hold as is, and is it different from Ballroom Leading)?

I don't know that AT is better, or more intricate or more open to interpretation than ballroom tango. I mean, I'd certainly agree with that, but I don't know BR tango enough to be able to comment. Skilled br dancers would, I'm sure, have a completely different opinion. *shrug* I prefer AT, though, and feel that that's true.

Yes, the lead is very different. I'd hesitate to say the arms are completely useless, because there are situations (partly tied to style, true) where they become important. Now, with the HUGE GRAIN OF SALT that I don't lead, I'll say that the AT lead comes from your chest/center/solar plexus. Generally (not going to get into exceptions here). For basic things, you should be able to lead with your hands behind your back. Control how she angles her body with the angle of your chest; control the direction of her steps by what direction you move your center; control the length of her step by your intention; control the timing of her weight change with your center. Don't ask me how it's done...that's just what I feel. That can be done without your arms.

One note regarding arms...elbows down, and relax!!!!! Tenderly hug your partner. If you can even remotely think of the word "frame" in connection with how you have your arms...stop! /*rant over*/

I'd say that if you're using a practice hold...keep the arms soft, and allow them to bend (and the distance between you to lesson somewhat) as you provide the intention without asking for a weight change. Soft arms...soft arms...soft arms... (They might well feel like noodle arms to you, if you're used to ballroom.)

 

[Br0nze]

You'll have to excuse the "ridiculous tilt" description of the hold, it was a late night after a long day and those were the only words that came to mind that managed to describe what I meant. Same with the "ronde action."

I was told that, indeed, most of the leading happens from the torso due to the close embrace in AT. Haven't had the chance to experience it to figure out how exactly (a) it feels and (b) works. It was indeed a group class, and while there were only two couples, mainly we were just introduced to the steps, and then left to our own devices, to so speak, but it's understandable -- it's a AT Intro class, no one is going to get all technique savvy on me.

But that's why I turned to the good people of this place

 

[bastet]

You'll have to excuse the "ridiculous tilt" description of the hold, it was a late night after a long day and those were the only words that came to mind that managed to describe what I meant. Same with the "ronde action."

I was told that, indeed, most of the leading happens from the torso due to the close embrace in AT. Haven't had the chance to experience it to figure out how exactly (a) it feels and (b) works. It was indeed a group class, and while there were only two couples, mainly we were just introduced to the steps, and then left to our own devices, to so speak, but it's understandable -- it's a AT Intro class, no one is going to get all technique savvy on me.

But that's why I turned to the good people of this place

My other reply got scratched so I'll try again in parts.

The lead always comes from the torso whether you are in open or close embrace.