opendoor
Forum Master
I feel a little caught, because I change lanes when the LOD doesn't go any further. There are pieces of music that just don't want to be danced to on the spot.
Cabeceo and Other "Rules"
- Thread starter Gssh
- Start date
I feel a little caught, because I change lanes when the LOD doesn't go any further. There are pieces of music that just don't want to be danced to on the spot.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
If any number of people do this, nobody advances quickly . . . it's usually the cause of the ronda not moving! This isn't speculation, but math. It's a variation on Braess's paradox sometimes called the "jamming paradox" when applied to lanes – be they lanes of cars on the road or lines of shoppers at the store. The father of my best friend during my teens was a traffic flow analyst and mathematician (and his best friend was my maths professor!), and showed me the math. The best way to speed up a stuck road or ronda is for everyone to remain in their lane.
Of course, that's math, not psychology – people find this counterintuitive. A lot of self-professed "advanced" dancers believe they can beat the odds through amazing dancing skill. But it's actually entirely logical and you can't beat the odds through what traffic flow analysts call "tactical" measures . . . the best driver in the world is still subject to the jamming paradox, and the best dancer at the milonga is, too.
This is why my floorcraft-obsessed teacher taught us to express "driving" music that "encourages" a swift advance in ways other than a swift advance, including high-speed turns, tight circular walking variants, and dynamic level changes.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
If there is a traffic jam in the other lane too, there is obviously no point in overtaking. But if the lane is free and the person in front of me has obvious problems to reach an appropriate speed, then I overtake, after some observation, with caution. In traffic and in tango.
opendoor
Forum Master
You then present a flawed theory. Each model must define variables, boundary conditions and target criteria. Apparently, the inventors of the Jamming Paradox didn't really adapt this exactly to the conditions in practice. Wishful thinking was probably the advisers of these researchers, but not measurable facts.
It's evident when I switch lanes I cover more distance and am more balanced and satisfied. But that precisely should be the objective. Simply donate your friend's father a dance class as a gift!
JournalInTime
Forum Master
The trick is that the overtaking and passing adds traffic to the destination lane, and even if done well risks causing halting by those in both lanes, unless they're very experienced and react well. I suppose it could work on a floor where everyone is experienced and prepared for it, but then I'd ask why – if those on the floor are good at this – there would be a traffic jam in the first place.
I think we're talking past one another: Yes, you might be happier. But the act of doing that might jam up everybody else. This is what I meant about psychology . . . The presence of one positive outcome leads everyone with a bet on the table to think they'll be the winner. There will certainly be a winner, but at the cost of interfering with many others.
What I'm saying is that whether you believe it or not, lane-changing and overtaking is bad for the average outcome. If 40 couples are moving at speed 2, the average is speed 2. If one couple moves at speed 3 and causes two others to have to move at speed 1, while everybody else moves at speed 2, now the average is speed 1.975. And if there are knock-on effects for a few other couples behind the two who slowed down, it's even lower. The swift couple moves quickly as they weave, but everybody else pays for their speed.
So the question becomes "Is it worth moving faster for the sake of your musical and dance experience, knowing you're making things worse for everybody else nearby?" I realize that a lot of dancers feel they aren't making things worse for anybody, only better for themselves, but all you have to do is watch the floor to see the fallacy in that.
opendoor
Forum Master
How often can I not enter the dance floor because there are already too many people. How often I don't like the music. How often is not the right dance partner on the spot.
If everything is alright, I don't want to worship the spirit of mediocrity or any other higher anonymous swarm existence. I still remember my first years when there was no explicit ronda. Floor craft was better, there were less accidents: all couples moved in a magical chaos. The leader had the entire field in view, not just the man in front. The ronda took a lot of pleasure from tango. Less talented dancers are predominant in the milongas today. That is my perception.
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JournalInTime
Forum Master
Well, if that's your experience, that's your experience! Two points and a conclusion, and then I'll shut up:
1. The situation where you live isn't universal. Two of my private instructors started tango in the early 1990s (call it 30 years ago), and say that they had line of dance, lanes, etc. even then. There wasn't a period when tango here didn't have those things, at least where my teachers danced – we're talking of experiences, so it's possible that other places were more lax. My point being that you can't assume that even very experienced dancers learned great floorcraft despite or because of that stuff; it might not hold true if you go to another country, the next city, or even the milonga down the road.
2. Regardless, we have line of dance, lanes, etc. almost everywhere today, and while dancers who don't like them might want to rebel against them, that's hard on everybody else. You can't assume that because they have bad floorcraft for whatever reason, you might as well ignore the rules.
I agree that floorcraft might be a mess because it's expected yet rarely taught, and therefore runs against the natural tendency of people to move where space allows and avoid collisions through common sense, as on the sidewalk outside. Sort of the way that fire-safety gear is actually less safe than no fire-safety gear if the people wielding it aren't trained in its use.
But I guess my experience is that it'd be better to teach everybody the rules than to revert to no rules and having that lack of rules produce good collision-avoidance through natural selection, same as it's better to teach fire safety than to let people burn in fires and know that the survivors learned something.
Overtaking?
Well, I have come across some claimed codigos from the past in that respect:
Thou shalt not overtake during a tanda
to a slightly more relaxed:
You may only overtake in extreme circumstances
At festivals in a metropolis I have come across dancers (not novices) who just have to overtake and take no prisoners.
Personally I go with overtaking only in extreme circumstances. But what's extreme? Well, the novices who stop, or argue, or both; beginners who are struggling; the couple who do an extreme sequence of adornments in place and in another universe, but only after giving them some time and space.
I can lead steps in a small, closed, space, check around, keep some space behind me (if it's under me, it's mine), etc.
AT used to be danced in small spaces, but you could also fill the room. I can imagine some dancers from the GA being perceived as 'blockers' nowadays. To me it's about adapting to and respecting the locale. Move forward if there's space, not because it suits the music to do big steps; if there isn't, adapt to a small space unless extreme circumstances apply; don't leave any bodies or blood on the floor.
So what's today's floorcraft milonga-defining codigo regarding overtaking?
Well, I have come across some claimed codigos from the past in that respect:
Thou shalt not overtake during a tanda
to a slightly more relaxed:
You may only overtake in extreme circumstances
At festivals in a metropolis I have come across dancers (not novices) who just have to overtake and take no prisoners.
Personally I go with overtaking only in extreme circumstances. But what's extreme? Well, the novices who stop, or argue, or both; beginners who are struggling; the couple who do an extreme sequence of adornments in place and in another universe, but only after giving them some time and space.
I can lead steps in a small, closed, space, check around, keep some space behind me (if it's under me, it's mine), etc.
AT used to be danced in small spaces, but you could also fill the room. I can imagine some dancers from the GA being perceived as 'blockers' nowadays. To me it's about adapting to and respecting the locale. Move forward if there's space, not because it suits the music to do big steps; if there isn't, adapt to a small space unless extreme circumstances apply; don't leave any bodies or blood on the floor.
So what's today's floorcraft milonga-defining codigo regarding overtaking?
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
I've seen it done, more than once. On the other hand, I've also seen couples get into extended conversations on the floor in the middle of a tanda. Sometimes they step off the floor, most of the time, they simply stand there yakking. Ten-twenty seconds, OK. Past the minute market though . . .
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Amen to that!
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
True . . . but if the interior of the LOD is empty, it doesn't really impede traffic flow on the floor. On a moderately crowded floor, dancers can move into the center lanes without bothering movement in the outer lane. Of course, if you have an outside LOD and and inside LOD and both are somewhat congested, then no, it's liable to simply produce the effect you describe.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
In general, don't do it.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Sometimes, a host will ask them to move or get off the floor. Sometimes I've gestured with my hand for them to move forward, you know with that brushing movement of the hand. Years ago, at some crowded event with not much space between me and the couple in front, some big big guy in front of me started moving back (with his back to me and my partner). So I simply straightarmed him and kept him ahead of us. Extreme, I know, but whaddya gonna do?
I try not to leave blood on the floor. Whatever evasive/protective action you take collisions can happen. Maybe that's an 'extreme' case?
I've also had the 'overtaker' cutting back in after a circuit.
Sometimes you've just got to avoid. Can't always rely on the host policing, never mind someone expected to be beyond 'novice'. Floorcraft skills weren't always good amidst 'milongueros', so I certainly don't expect better in today's society.
Same as road traffic. If the car in front is blocking the flow with large amounts of space in front of them, overtake if it is safe to do so.