Cabeceo promotes better dancing

[jantango]

I fully believe in following what ever the local codes are (assuming I know what they are). That being said, I was at a milonga last night where I was asked to dance just about as much as I asked others to dance. Equal rights can be achieved in more than one way.

If you go to BsAs, you absolutely should expect to follow their codes. Everywhere isn't BsAs, however. There are places where the local codes allow women to ask men to dance (and people who go there should expect to be able to handle those codes).

That's like accepting two sets of rules for the same game, depending where it is played. Tango originated in Buenos Aires and includes codes that have been respected and followed for 70 years.

If I traveled to another city where I went to dance, I would wait to be invited by cabeceo. The rules of tango are the rules I follow.

How are visiting dancers supposed to know the local codes if they are different from those in the tradition of tango? This would require an announcement by the organizer or posting the rules for all to read in several languages.

 

[UKDancer]

Tango originated in Buenos Aires and includes codes that have been respected and followed for 70 years.

When in Rome ...

Tango has been a dance with International reach for considerably longer than it ever was the sole preserve of portenos, and the inhabitants of Montevideo & other places would dispute the monopoly anyway. I've nothing against cabeceo; nothing at all, and I personally wish that it was more widely practised, but if you come visiting to my part of the UK and you rely on it, you probably won't dance with anyone.

 

[AndaBien]

That's like accepting two sets of rules for the same game, depending where it is played. Tango originated in Buenos Aires and includes codes that have been respected and followed for 70 years.

If I traveled to another city where I went to dance, I would wait to be invited by cabeceo. The rules of tango are the rules I follow.

How are visiting dancers supposed to know the local codes if they are different from those in the tradition of tango? This would require an announcement by the organizer or posting the rules for all to read in several languages.

Rules of a game are not the same as local customs. Rules are written down in a book and all sides agree to adhere to them. There is a referee or umpire going around making sure everyone follows the rules and there is a penalty for infraction. Local customs are only general agreements, which can be, and are, broken on occasion.

The fact is that different venues have varying local customs, I'm sure, even in various clubs of Buenos Aires. Even in the most strict clubs there, some people get to dance while not adhering to the customs.

One learns the customs by asking people, or merely by looking around to learn.

Since you have rules that you prefer, you're free to use them, but you might miss out on some good dances that way.

 

[dchester]

That's like accepting two sets of rules for the same game, depending where it is played. Tango originated in Buenos Aires and includes codes that have been respected and followed for 70 years.

I guess that's often the case (at least here in the US) where there can be different rules for the "same game". A simple example: High School football has different rules from College Football which also has different rules from professional football (the NFL). Canadian Football has different rules as well, even though they all are the "same game".

At a lot of milongas here, people are using the cabeceo, along with people walking up and asking. I don't make the rules, nor do I worry about changing them. I just try to observe what people are doing, (if it's a place I'm unfamiliar with), and then try to fit in.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Interestingly, I find there are no two sets of rules, there is only one, everywhere. All good dancers are aware of the codigos and practice them. 90% of the dances I get outside Buenos Aires are still arranged by cabeceo. In our milongas, we get visitors from all over the world. They have no problem using cabeceo.
Those who don't, I find, also do not really know how to dance, at least not yet. By not knowing how to dance I mean that they don't know the music, cannot recognize the orchestra, cannot go with the music, some don't even know when the song is going to end. They don't have a nice embrace, have trouble navigating the floor, etc etc, so they are not a big joy to dance with anyhow. If I say yes to dances like that (the remaining 10%) it mostly falls into category "beginners and networking".

 

[dchester]

Interestingly, I find there are no two sets of rules, there is only one, everywhere. All good dancers are aware of the codigos and practice them. 90% of the dances I get outside Buenos Aires are still arranged by cabeceo. In our milongas, we get visitors from all over the world. They have no problem using cabeceo.
Those who don't, I find, also do not really know how to dance, at least not yet. By not knowing how to dance I mean that they don't know the music, cannot recognize the orchestra, cannot go with the music, some don't even know when the song is going to end. They don't have a nice embrace, have trouble navigating the floor, etc etc, so they are not a big joy to dance with anyhow. If I say yes to dances like that (the remaining 10%) it mostly falls into category "beginners and networking".

I'm curious, what part of the country are you in? Around here (in the Northeast), the most common situation is various people doing a mix of the cabeceo along with people walking up and asking someone to dance (including women asking men to dance).

Basically, when the organizer asks you to do dance, you get a pretty good indication that it's an acceptable behavior there.

My suspicion is you're good enough that you need a way to cut down on the dance requests, and the cabeceo fills the bill for you.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

I'm curious, what part of the country are you in? Around here (in the Northeast), the most common situation is various people doing a mix of the cabeceo along with people walking up and asking someone to dance (including women asking men to dance).

Basically, when the organizer asks you to do dance, you get a pretty good indication that it's an acceptable behavior there.

My suspicion is you're good enough that you need a way to cut down on the dance requests, and the cabeceo fills the bill for you.

I live in San Francisco Bay Area.

 

[Zoopsia59]

At the end of the milonga (only a few people left), I tried to cabeceo him. First, I was blocked by some people standing right in front of me carrying a conversation. Just as they moved away, I noticed that the leader was turning my way. Right at that moment, a women stepped in front of him inviting him to dance. Of course he refused. Neither of us, nor that woman, get to dance the last tanda that night.

It doesn't sound like from your description that you can be 100% positive that he would have been inviting you for a tanda anyway. It would also have been possible, if he HAD already seen your gaze and wanted to dance with you, for him to say to the other woman "I'm sorry, but I've already been invited by someone else for this tanda". Then it wouldn't have been an issue for him to refuse one person and then dance with another.

Is there a reason you waited for the other people to move rather than moving yourself to have a line-of-sight with him?

 

[Zoopsia59]

That's like accepting two sets of rules for the same game, depending where it is played.

Tango is not a sport with an international committee overseeing rules of the game. It is a social situation driven by the social codes of the culture. There are hundreds of social codes that vary from culture to culture and only the tourists who don't want to be sensitive to other cultures feel they shouldn't have to learn anything about them.

Anyone who travels should be prepared to know something about the social customs of their destination. Aren't Americans constantly criticized for not dealing well with "furineers" habits in the "furineers" own country? Aren't we all embarrassed by people of our own nationality behaving obnoxiously or insensitively when we see them in other countries?

Tango doesn't need to be any different. A small amount of time spent observing will clue all but the most oblivious person in to how people are arranging their dances (and let's face it, those oblivious people aren't going to be impressed by rules anyway) When they can't figure it out easily, if one speaks the local language, they can simply ask the organizer or another friendly dancer.

Absolutely people should use cabeceo in BA. But if a small local community in the middle of the US that gets very little tourism wants to allow verbal asking, it's their choice. That doesn't mean that followers HAVE to go asking for dances if it makes them uncomfortable. (I never do no matter where I am)

 

[Zoopsia59]

Rules of a game are not the same as local customs. Rules are written down in a book and all sides agree to adhere to them. There is a referee or umpire going around making sure everyone follows the rules and there is a penalty for infraction. Local customs are only general agreements, which can be, and are, broken on occasion.

One learns the customs by asking people, or merely by looking around to learn.

Should have read ahead... AndaB posted almost exactly what I said before I got there.

 

[Zoopsia59]

A woman expresses her interest in dancing with a man in her body language and looking his way, but the cabeceo tradition gives the responsibility to the man. Where did women get the idea they can and should initiate it?

The refusal/rejection goes both ways. Mirada: eye contact from both man and woman. Cabeceo: nod, nodding - initiated by the man to invite a woman, then with a response of acceptance or refusal by the woman.

You sorta answered your own question. People mistakenly use the term cabeceo for the entire process, including the mirada. With that in mind, some people would say the woman "initiates" when she first looks at a man.

If the code s that you aren't supposed (as a woman) to even look at a man unless he is already looking at you, I'd say that could be problematic, since you can't know if he is looking at you without looking at him.

 

[Zoopsia59]

The cabeceo spares public rejection and works more efficiently than crossing the floor to make a verbal invitation.

I would need one of those signs that say "I have impaired vision. Please ask me to dance"

There is NO WAY ... none... zip... nada... that I can tell if someone is looking at me from the other side of the room.

Even when the room is well lit. (and no milonga I've ever been to in the US is)

Even in the smaller spaces where I've been to practicas.

If someone wants to catch my eye, they are going to have to get a lot closer to me or I'm going to need a service dog (or friend) to help me out.

 

[bordertangoman]

Well i got my first cabeceo from a man entering the line of dance. worked nicely, just like Murat Erdemsel described....

 

[Subliminal]

I feel like this subject has been beaten to death in a bunch of other threads. The cabeceo works fine when the milonga is set up for it and everyone is using it. It's not nearly as effective when only some people are using it and when the dance floor isn't set up for it, but it can still work for experienced dancers.

Everyone who dances AT should know how it works, at least. But just saying everyone should use it isn't going to make it happen. The cultural aspect is too different. The fact that there are no standards for AT other than social ones makes it so you can't enforce the cabeceo on any milonga organizer.

 

[LoveTango]

It doesn't sound like from your description that you can be 100% positive that he would have been inviting you for a tanda anyway. It would also have been possible, if he HAD already seen your gaze and wanted to dance with you, for him to say to the other woman "I'm sorry, but I've already been invited by someone else for this tanda". Then it wouldn't have been an issue for him to refuse one person and then dance with another.

Is there a reason you waited for the other people to move rather than moving yourself to have a line-of-sight with him?

No, not 100%, probably 90%. There were not many people left in the room, and only a few sitting, and among the sitting women, most were his acquantance he had conversed and danced with already. He had his chance inviting them before my view was cleared. He also had his chance changing shoes, but he didn't until he refused the lady. If you were in that room, you may be able to judge who is likely or unlikely to invite you to dance. My judgement could be totally off, but this is not quite relevant because I did not say the lady ruined my dance. I meant I lost the opportunity to even Caboceo for the dance.

As for why I did not move to clear the view is for the same reason. With so few people in the room, my move would have made a similar effect as a verbal invitation.