That's a skill that I'm trying to work on. If he has any tips on what helped him with it, I'd love to hear them.
Can Tango change?
- Thread starter jantango
- Start date
I really wasn't referring so much to how definite or "commanding" the leader is in his style of leading any given move. Even a leader who doesn't allow for the follower to do much playing still takes input from the follower about what he is going to lead.
IF he's a good leader that is.
He may lead every step and not give her any time to interject something, but he should still be aware of what's going on for her. The leaders who do what I call "dance their partner" (not with their partner) don't "listen" to their partner. No input is going in. Only output coming out.
He dances with every partner the same. If the follower doesn't get a move after a few tries, he just keeps hammering it so that "she'll learn it", especially if its one of his favorite moves. (he's dancing for himself and she won't be acceptable if she can't do THAT move). If she isn't on the foot he expected because of whatever, he is either unaware, or simply doesn't bother to adjust his next move to accomodate it. If something is awkward for her, he does it anyway instead of dropping it for the tanda and doing other stuff. If she's tired or has short legs, he still takes his long steps either oblivous to, or ignoring the effort she is having to make. If she's clearly not flexible, he still leads those high inline boleos. If she's older, he leads her like she's 20 and can twist like pretzel rapidly absorbing jerky changes in her aging joints. (or more likely he avoids her)
In other words, he makes no adjustments based on his partner. If he knows he will have to adjust (maybe she's just had hip replacement surgery) he probably won't ask her to dance because he'll have to "compromise" too much. He cares little of HER experience of the tanda or of creating a positive experience for her.
I've danced with some Argentine men who were excellent leaders and yes, they were very "commanding" in HOW they led, but they adapted to my abilities in WHAT they led (and they seamlessly adapted to my missteps) It may seem like the follower isn't getting as much chance to participate in the choreography, but in reality, she IS participating because the leader is taking her into account when he decides what stuff he is going to lead. So she actually has quite a bit of influence, albeit in a subtle and indirect way. (the better the leader, the faster he makes these adaptations with a total stranger)
In fairness of course, some leaders just don't realize that what they are doing ISN"T a good experience for the follower. If followers complain "when are you going to take lessons" and "Your dancing is too simple" then leaders learn that what makes followers happy is big fancy moves in complex patterns. Then when they throw someone's back out, they are perplexed because they thought "girls like that stuff".
mkjohnson
Member
delurking just to say, Bastet, if you and I are thinking of the same milonga - I'm so impressed with your (both of you) ability to focus on the dance amidst chaotic floor conditions. I usually close my eyes when I dance anyway, but I had virtually no choice at that particularly milonga - just to keep from accidentally flinching so often. You two definitely have a gift for seeming very serene and connected no matter what sort of nonsense might be going on around you.Hmm...Quite sweeping....
I guess I have a different idea of what "surrender" means to me, as a follower.
To me, a lead being "certain" doesn't imply that I want to be carried around like a puppet, nor be dictated to for an entire tanda.
A weak lead actually implies less participation to me, because then I have to pay that much more attention to what the leader "meant" and "guesswork" that I can't enjoy and participate as much as I'd like.
If a leader is "certain" and sure of his movement, then I am able to relax more and focus on 2 things of great importance to me- my connection to him and the music. If a leader is uncertain or weak, listening to the music is about the first thing to go for me.
I think if you ask leads who are quite certain and sure of their movement and dancing, they will probably reply that they actually perfer ladies to participate as well, and this isn't the same thing as ladies "guessing" a weak lead and making something up and calling it participation.
We were actually at a milonga the other week that had pretty bad floorcraft. However, my other half mentioned that though he noticed it, it didn't bother him too much, as he has been honing his ability to "command" the space underneath him to the point where most of the chaos around him made little interference with what he was able to do in a dance- and because my "dance flow" was never interrupted, I never noticed it either.
And I had one leader tell me he was disappointed that I wasn't more into ganchos and high boleos - that I had seemed like I would enjoy that sort of thing. I wasn't too sure how to take that actually. *shrug*
And a weak lead also usually means the leader is too busy worrying about the steps and isn't very aware of you anyway. His inability to "figure out" where you are and what you are going to do in response to him is part of why the lead is weak. Leaders often have no clue what the result of their move is supposed to be. They only got shown their "step" and they just hope the follower does "her step"... whatever it is.. he really doesn't know.
OR, he knows she's supposed to do X because in the class he does these steps and the followers learned to do X. He didn't learn to LEAD X.
Therein lies the root of the problem. He's doing his steps, but he has no idea what he's actually LEADING either because he doesn't realize he's not leading, or because he doesn't have any idea what response his steps are supposed to achieve. (I actually had one student ask me in my first lesson with him "what are you doing when I do this?" and I almost fainted. He actually realized that was something he needed to know!)
:together:
Ampster
Active Member
mkjohnson, Welcome to DF!!! :banana:
I wouldn't worry about him. Sounds like an uniformed newbie. Or worse, a clueless "experienced" one.
bastet
Active Member
thanks for the compliment!
Though I do actually enjoy boleos and ganchos, and I don't think you should feel bad if you want to or have learned them also...but I think my main issue is that in our particular area, it seems this is the ONLY vocabulary many leaders have...not many have taken the time to learn the vocabulary most useful in small or tight venues (or they think they know it because they can do ocho cortado one way and that is all there is...
) and I suspect this may also be what some of the others may feel too.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
Heh. Ganchos and boleos.
I have nothing to contribute, really (don'cha love me?), but I will say that I used to HATE ganchos and boleos. Refused to do them for a couple of years. The first one I really did was a "birthday gift" to my teacher. I did it just for him, because it was his birthday.
Once I got over my fear of them (looking stupid, not having time, tripping, falling, etc.), I got to really like them. The power, the sexiness, the femininity, the flirtatiousness...the eroticism...*fanning self*... Love them now. Not saying that I do them particulary well, but I enjoy them at least.
brb...have to go smoke now...*fanning self some more*
I have nothing to contribute, really (don'cha love me?), but I will say that I used to HATE ganchos and boleos. Refused to do them for a couple of years. The first one I really did was a "birthday gift" to my teacher. I did it just for him, because it was his birthday.
Once I got over my fear of them (looking stupid, not having time, tripping, falling, etc.), I got to really like them. The power, the sexiness, the femininity, the flirtatiousness...the eroticism...*fanning self*... Love them now. Not saying that I do them particulary well, but I enjoy them at least.
brb...have to go smoke now...*fanning self some more*
Something I just happened across.
He recalled a panel discussion about art or dance or something like that. It had professors and artists, and it also included the tango singer Goyeneche. Although he is very famous, Goyeneche sat quietly while the panel discussed the need for art to grow, and how tango was stale, and needed to change. The conversation was being dominated by academics, and especially by one young woman who was a well known performer in Argentina. Finally she asked Goyeneche what he thought. He said, well, what they said was true—tango always needed to grow. But then he asked the woman how old she was. She said “I’m 25 years old”. He said gently, “Well, if you stay in tango and come to me when you are 40 or 50, we may have a different discussion.” Miguel said the program continued, and the remark was sort of passed over… but it is the one thing he remembers. He said despite the bad teaching and bad dancing, he’s not worried. Most of those who stay, the serious ones who stick around for 15 or 20 years, will eventually find tango. Some never do, and others move on, but in time, enough of them will get there—and the great tradition will continue.
He recalled a panel discussion about art or dance or something like that. It had professors and artists, and it also included the tango singer Goyeneche. Although he is very famous, Goyeneche sat quietly while the panel discussed the need for art to grow, and how tango was stale, and needed to change. The conversation was being dominated by academics, and especially by one young woman who was a well known performer in Argentina. Finally she asked Goyeneche what he thought. He said, well, what they said was true—tango always needed to grow. But then he asked the woman how old she was. She said “I’m 25 years old”. He said gently, “Well, if you stay in tango and come to me when you are 40 or 50, we may have a different discussion.” Miguel said the program continued, and the remark was sort of passed over… but it is the one thing he remembers. He said despite the bad teaching and bad dancing, he’s not worried. Most of those who stay, the serious ones who stick around for 15 or 20 years, will eventually find tango. Some never do, and others move on, but in time, enough of them will get there—and the great tradition will continue.
piimapoika, Thanks for sharing those videos; they were very inspiring, and recalled for me how exciting and inspiring Tango music can be. The Tango Lustila sang in that video was very danceable for the 1950's Gaucho Tango that Frank Veloz & Yolanda dances in the movie, "The Lou Gerig Story".
Frank Veloz was my Boss and I was fortunate to have been taught some of Veloz's Tango moves. while I taught at one of his chain studios.
There were two schools of Tango in the 1950's; Argentine Gaucho and the Continental Tango.
Frank Veloz was my Boss and I was fortunate to have been taught some of Veloz's Tango moves. while I taught at one of his chain studios.
There were two schools of Tango in the 1950's; Argentine Gaucho and the Continental Tango.
Heather2007
New Member
And your response next time will be: "...like I was disappointed by your ineptitude to lead them". (Cheeky mare)