CE Clinic: is there parallel or cross footed in the GIRO?

[Subliminal]

I think maybe that explanation is a little overcomplicated? What I was taught is that cross-system just means both partners are on the same foot, and in parallel they are on opposite feet. Nothing about how to walk it. (Though it follows if you're walking in a straight line, you have to walk on three tracks in cross system.)

It's a learning tool, like any other terminology.

 

[AndaBien]

... cross-system just means both partners are on the same foot, and in parallel they are on opposite feet... It's a learning tool, like any other terminology.

In it's simplest explanation this is exactly what it means. Some teaching occurs using words, so we have to have them and know what they mean. However, as dancers we have to go beyond the words and understand the entire concept and functionality of what is being described. Few other social dances have the concept of dancing in either crossed or parallel systems, so leaders have to really get this figured out.

I think it's important for followers to understand where they should place their feet when stepping toward their partners. When stepping backwards it's not really necessary to know.

I like to explain tracks as either two, three or four, with three or four tracks being outside to either left or right.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I think it's important for followers to understand where they should place their feet when stepping toward their partners. When stepping backwards it's not really necessary to know.

Agree that followers have to understand where they should place their feet when walking forward, but hopefully the lead will make that clear with his body. After all, she probably isn't getting a choice of whether she steps with her right or left, therefore she doesn't get a choice of whether she's going to be in crossed or parallel. The leader has already determined which is the follower's free leg.

Disagree that she doesn't need to know where to place her feet when walking backwards. Diagonal drifting (usually outward) of the follower's back reach is a common mistake. Basically the follower has to know where to place her feet no matter where she is stepping. She doesn't need to know whether she is in parallel or crossed as she does it.

 

[Zoopsia59]

What I was taught is that cross-system just means both partners are on the same foot, and in parallel they are on opposite feet.

That's my impression as well, but not at all what I would take away from Ampster's definition. (sorry Amps.. usually I love your explanations!)

And the problem comes for me in dealing with figuring out right and left for the person facing me vs me. (do they have the same foot forward or not?)

Its like being on stage and front of house at the same time and trying to describe "right"... stage right? house right? my right? your right? I tend to point with my right hand and point to the left and say "right" when I tell people in a car to turn. Its gotten so that I often raise the opposing hand, point, and then have to stop to figure out whether to say right or left. Usually I just say "turn that way" and point, but I almost always use the opposite hand to point. My legs translate the words right and left even slower.

 

[dchester]

My problem is that the two terms (cross vs parallel) are not intuitive to me for what they are describing. I have to use memorization rather than conceptualization to remember which term goes with which position. In fact, they almost seem backwards to me for whatever reason.

So despite my years of dancing and even some teaching, I avoid the terms rather than use them incorrectly. I've found that some people latch onto them easily and others, not so much. So talking to leaders about right and left feet works out better for me.

Of course, that leaves me stymied in a discussion like this thread.

Here is a crude attempt at it.
X = Guy's foot
# = Woman's foot

Parallel System
    #
  # X
  X

Cross System
  #
  X #
X

If you draw two lines (one through each of the people's feet) in one system, the lines are parallel, while in the other, the lines cross. I'm not claiming this will help you dance any better, but just explain where they got the names for the terms.

 

[Mario7]

Parallel System
    #
  # X
  X

Cross System
  #
  X #
X

.

Oh, I get it! It's the Knight's pawn deferred opening!:cowboy: Actually, a really good illustration!

 

[Zoopsia59]

Here is a crude attempt at it.
X = Guy's foot
# = Woman's foot

Parallel System
    #
  # X
  X

Cross System
  #
  X #
X

If you draw two lines (one through each of the people's feet) in one system, the lines are parallel, while in the other, the lines cross. I'm not claiming this will help you dance any better, but just explain where they got the names for the terms.

I don't know how to say this any clearer...

Its not that I don't understand it... its that I can't ever REMEMBER it, apply it to someone facing me, or figure it out quickly when in motion!

The two words are as arbitrary to me as people's names. You just have to remember them.

And since it all looks sorta "crossed" up once you are "outside partner", I can't sort it out without taking a minute.

I have trouble with right and left. (I also have trouble with East and West, but somehow North and South or Up and Down are not an issue )

and BTW - Once again, you offered only 2 possibilities and there are actually FOUR.. (Two parallel, and two crossed) and 3 of them are on more than 2 tracks. If the only "parallel" was when you are directly in front, well, that's easy to spot. It's telling the other 3 options apart on the fly (while moving or when you don't have another person to look at and are trying to visualize) that takes me a little time and trouble.

Using your illustration (drawing the lines from one person's right to the other person's, and same for left) dancing outside partner in parallel is actually crossed.

      L#
   RX/R#
     LX

But thanks for helping me see how to write in punctuation! 9although the spacing and the angle still make it look weirdly wrong)

 

[Mario7]

I hope this helps; there is no 'remembering' involved when dancing. If you dance the parallel and crossed footed walks enough, and you are a man, you simply decide which foot to advance into the space that the woman is opening.
IE; you move her and she steps back with her left foot, you advance with either your right or left and the rest just falls into place from the lower brain's having done it a thousand times. I find that this is one thing that practicing dancing alone can really help. That is; visualizing the woman's feet with all the different walks (6?)... after a while it becomes spontaneous to advance however you feel like it at that moment in the song. I hope that this is understandable..

 

[Zoopsia59]

I hope this helps; there is no 'remembering' involved when dancing. If you dance the parallel and crossed footed walks enough, and you are a man, you simply decide which foot to advance into the space that the woman is opening.
IE; you move her and she steps back with her left foot, you advance with either your right or left and the rest just falls into place from the lower brain's having done it a thousand times. I find that this is one thing that practicing dancing alone can really help. That is; visualizing the woman's feet with all the different walks (6?)... after a while it becomes spontaneous to advance however you feel like it at that moment in the song. I hope that this is understandable..

Its not that I can't remember how to WALK, for Pete's sake.. or how to get around the follower or which foot to place next. Sheesh. I can DANCE.

I can't remember which term goes with which position or how to quickly recognize whether we are in parallel or cross when moving quickly through steps outside partner.

If I told you I was dyslexic would you all be trying to figure out a simple solution for me? I have trouble with right and left in the same way a dyslexic flip-flops things. I appreciate that you all want to help, but I've been at this for YEARS. (and I've been dealing with right and left since I was, what... FIVE?) Let it go people. Its not simple for someone who can't tell right and left. I know you can't comprehend that someone would have that trouble, but that's how it is.

And yes, Mario, when talking about TERMINOLOGY, there is remembering involved. I never said I couldn't DANCE the various ways. Can you remember every tango term you've been exposed to and exactly what step it is? If you can, you're REMEMBERING. If you can't remember what its called, but you can dance it, then how is that different from what I'm saying?

I'm REALLY tiring of trying to explain this. Am I seriously the only person here whose ever had a mental block with something that they just couldn't ever get into their head, no matter what little tricks others suggested? Anyone here have trouble with lay, lie, laid, layed, etc? Or who and whom? Or any of 10,000 other things that trip people up?:headwall:

 

[Mario7]

:cheers::cheers:

I can DANCE.
..I can't remember which term goes with which position or how to quickly recognize whether we are in parallel or cross when moving quickly through steps outside partner.

Why on earth is that important, then? Is it so that you can explain it to others? Make a board-room presentation with power point? I don't get it..if you can dance it, who cares. Sure there is 'remembering' when terminology is used in speech but I thought that this was all about dancing...somewhere we got switched to talking and problems we run into when talking? ok, so don't talk about it then. We all talk too much anyway.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Why on earth is that important, then?

Dmaned if I know.... The only reason I brought it up at all, is because you asked about cross and parallel in the giro and I said I don't think of it for circular movement. I wanted to clarify that I tend not to think in those terms much AT ALL even when walking, and so my answer to your original question may not be very definitive or useful.

Then it became its own thing....
Not that I don't appreciate the attempts people made to help, but its futile.

 

[tanjive]

no, once I've started a giro, I just put my feet (trying to reflect the music, obviously) where they need to be to facilitate the lead. I don't plan with which foot to exit from the giro - the one which is most convenient at the moment. The important thing to feel which foot her weight is on.

Just remember which foot you started the giro on, and feel for the above. Pause at the end and shift your own weight if you need to before you step. That is it. So no it really does not matter thinking of x or parallel system in a giro for the lead. Most important is a clean turning of your torso at a constant rate that is not ahead or rushing the follow. No bending your axis over or you will topple, turn her in an oval or something.

There are occasions it does matter though. If you lapiz your free foot needs to be the side the follow is walking around you.

This is true for the giro where the lead is the central point and the follow goes 360degree around him, as if he if a maypole. Any giro where the lead is stepping to where the follow was, it does become important. These are very tight giros in terms of floor space. Sacadas are optional. Essentially you are walking and turning (def of giro) together.

 

[opendoor]

X or || in giro

Hi Mario, I dont think of parallel or crossed within a turn (I mean the one with molinete steps for the woman, and the rulo for me).

But I always think of how to get out of the turn at the end. I dont like that stopping with a lapis. So, if there is not enough space around me, I continue on the fly with parallel walking right after her last back8 . But if there is plenty of room, I "switch to crossed thinking" and leave the giro with a sacada. (And its all the same with apilado, salón, open, CC, or CW)




OD

 

[dchester]

I don't know how to say this any clearer...

Its not that I don't understand it... its that I can't ever REMEMBER it, apply it to someone facing me, or figure it out quickly when in motion!

The two words are as arbitrary to me as people's names. You just have to remember them.

And since it all looks sorta "crossed" up once you are "outside partner", I can't sort it out without taking a minute.

I have trouble with right and left. (I also have trouble with East and West, but somehow North and South or Up and Down are not an issue )

IMO, unless you are leading, I'm not sure that you need to "apply" or "figure out" any of this stuff.

For me (a leader), thinking about this stuff from the analytical side (the geometry of things) helps me, because I feel I need to understand where the follower needs be, for various moves. I don't see any advantage for the follower to be analyzing moves in the same way. It's hard enough to just understand the lead, react to it, and make it into art.

 

[Mario7]

.. and make it into art.

Now we're talk'en dude...:cheers: