Changing the embrace..pleasing or not?

[AndaBien]

...I don't think leaders have quite this same issue to learn about because they are less likely to ever be much smaller than their female partners, and therefore less likely to ever assume they will be held up by her (or be unaware that they are so)...

I agree with your comments. However, I think there is as much variation in the sizes and shapes of women as in men. If I want to dance with a small, or tender, or even an older woman, I have to lighten my preferred way of connecting. Some of my enjoyable partners are bigger than I am and I have to dance quite strongly with them.

I do think it's a common mistake for followers to think they should hang on their partners, and leaders probably never do this. (How would I know)? The followers' energy should go from the floor up into the leaders chest, at least in apilado.

 

[bastet]

Yes, in fact there is a way.. .Unfortunately, I only learned about it as a follower, so I can't really explain it well.

In a lesson I had with a fairly well known leader when I was first learning changing embrace, I asked him how I am supposed to know when to move in and out of the embrace or how to position myself and when to lean, etc, etc.. he explained that if I have to guess, then the leader isn't doing it right.

In the same context, he worked with varying the amount of leaning I was doing when we were in CE. The way he did it, it just naturally resulted in my giving him more of my weight, just as I would do in a volcada. We got in position to start, we made a connection, then he continued to press forward in a way that I knew not to step (keeping my weight over my standing foot so that I didn't try to change weight onto a free leg moving forward) but moved his own feet back which increased the amount of shared weight as well as the distance between our feet. (but not as much as one would normally do for a volcada) Then he danced without letting that relationship changed. Voila! Shared weight dancing!.

The person (or couple) we have been working with lately definitely teach going back and forth from sharing to not sharing and I am infull agreement with your assessment.

Switching back and forth to shared weight/not shared weight can be done but I have to agree that if the follow can't tell easily, then the lead needs to learn more clarity.

It's been very clear to me the times I've been "placed" (for lack of a better word) back upright and it's clear when dancing with my instructor, versus "guessing" with my regular partner, usually because he is trying to get me to go upright by letting go of me. Unfortunately, the "let's just let go of her back" method tends to make me extremely unstable instead of giving me clear indications...oh well...

It can be done and have it feel fine, it just has to be done well.

 

[borisvian13]

This repeated experience is why I feel that there are two distinct dances going on...traditional that I see as profound and modern that I see as show-biz. I wish that there were two forums for two different dances and their aficionados... and all the blah blah blah for the integration of the two is just that; blah blah blah.

And precisely this is your most serious mistake, Mario. You live in a Hollywood movie: you have that constant, all-consuming need to know who the good guys and who the bad guys are

It's nothing like that, there is excellent, mediocre, bad and extremely bad level of dancing in each style of AT.
I do enjoy a lot the dancing of Tete, Ricardo Vigort and many other milongueros whose videos you have posted.
The "dancing" of S. Miller, M. Gluzman and the likes is quite a different phenomenon however...

 

[Lui]

For me sharing an axis results in such a lean, that one partner would drop when the other would suddenly vanished. As long as each partner could remain his/her balance everyone has still his own axis.I asked my girlfriend and she never experienced such a strong lean when dancing with the Milongueros. Neither did I, when dancing with the ladies in Buenos Aires. Further, I don’t recall any strong lean in the few dances I had with Mrs. Miller when she was in Berlin – although that was quite a while ago. Therefore, I tend to agree with Opendoor: Yes, there is a leaning forward and there is pressure of weight in the toes, but in general the lean is a illusion, as one’s center of gravity (or rather it’s projection on the floor) is never pushed further than to the top of the toes.

Even in open embrace a slight lean is helpful and often necessary for the women to completely use the impulse of the men. If she would lean backward e.g. she would be pushed over at sudden changes of dynamic. In certain figures, like a carousel, a straight posture is more comfortable, in any embrace. If those movements are still part of the Milonguero styles depends one’s individual system of belief.

To translate music into movements I have to adapt my dancing style to the style of the music. Dramatic music calls for dramatic moves (and is therefore not played at traditional, extremly crowded Milongas). Dramatic moves call for freedom of movement. La Yumba interpreted by Pugliese is way more fun once you open up beyond close embrace.

Finally,for me, one main aspect of tango is to show my honest respect for my partner by giving her the most pleasurable dance possible. This includes her right to choose the distance within the couple, just as it is comfortable for her. Any good dancer will respect that decision. A resourceful dancer might “trick” her into closing up on her own, once she is enjoying the dance. Demanding a tight hold reduces the lady’s the status towards those of an inanimated sport equipment. That surely sheds a bad light on the leader.

 

[borisvian13]

I think one problem that Borisivian may be encountering is followers that lean heavily on him even though he doesn't want to dance that style. Add to that the problem of some followers creating downward weight instead of forward weight, and if someone doesn't want to share weight, it can be fairly unpleasant. (downward weight is always unpleasant)

Certainly what you are describing is quite unpleasant and I have experienced it but that's not my point.

What I wholeheartedly reject is the very statement that tango can be danced while leaning with the WHOLE body ( that is, from one's center of mass of the whole body which is located in the pelvis area for women and a bit above for me).

I don't like (what I feel to be) a lot of resistance at the torso level but that's my personal preference, while that thing about leaning with the whole body, leaning from the ankles, etc., is simply objectively, conceptually wrong.

 

[chanchan]

I don't like (what I feel to be) a lot of resistance at the torso level but that's my personal preference, while that thing about leaning with the whole body, leaning from the ankles, etc., is simply objectively, conceptually wrong.

Leaving away personal preferences, is there any objective, conceptual reason why you can say it is wrong?

 

[opendoor]

Re: whether or

... adapt my dancing style to the style of the music. ..

! that´s my style, too. But so few can understand, or follow this concept, including up to the highest division of dancers.

..is there any objective, conceptual reason why you can say it is wrong?

yes, there is on: with some followers it simply aches !

 

[borisvian13]

Leaving away personal preferences, is there any objective, conceptual reason why you can say it is wrong?

Certainly there is.

Here is simple exercise. Looking at the mirror, lean forward with your entire body. Don't reach the point when you lose balance, but make sure you lean uniformly, strung, from the ankles, as some people enjoy putting it.

OK, now try to take a step, forward or backward. Something not so pleasant happens, right? You lose most of your balance. This kind of lean is simply not compatible with the natural human walk.

Yes, certainly the follower can be put in this kind of lean and that's fine for many non-walking (for the follower) situations as volcadas, calesitas or just pauses. Many milongueros love to do that in pauses. But for any decent, let alone elegant walking? No way.

Again, this kind of lean should not be confused with sharing weight from the center of one's torso, something which is not only fine but in fact it is required for tango to happen. There is always a shared weight, it might be 20 grams but it's there. Now what the upper bound is for this shared weight is a matter of personal preference.

 

[Peaches]

Certainly there is.

Here is simple exercise. Looking at the mirror, lean forward with your entire body. Don't reach the point when you lose balance, but make sure you lean uniformly, strung, from the ankles, as some people enjoy putting it.

OK, now try to take a step, forward or backward. Something not so pleasant happens, right? You lose most of your balance. This kind of lean is simply not compatible with the natural human walk.

Yes, certainly the follower can be put in this kind of lean and that's fine for many non-walking (for the follower) situations as volcadas, calesitas or just pauses. Many milongueros love to do that in pauses. But for any decent, let alone elegant walking? No way.

Again, this kind of lean should not be confused with sharing weight from the center of one's torso, something which is not only fine but in fact it is required for tango to happen. There is always a shared weight, it might be 20 grams but it's there. Now what the upper bound is for this shared weight is a matter of personal preference.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with most of what you've said.

It is entirely possible to walk backwards (or forward, or sideways) while maintaining that forward lean. Followers do it all the time. That's the whole basis of non-weight sharing-close embrace. Which brings me to my next point...

Sharing weight from the center of one's torso is not required for tango to happen. There is open embrace, but aside from that, there is a style of close embrace tango which does not involve sharing of weight...where each partner is entirely on their own axis, is entirely in control of their own axis.

 

[AndaBien]

...Here is simple exercise. Looking at the mirror, lean forward with your entire body. Don't reach the point when you lose balance, but make sure you lean uniformly, strung, from the ankles, as some people enjoy putting it.

OK, now try to take a step, forward or backward. Something not so pleasant happens, right? You lose most of your balance. This kind of lean is simply not compatible with the natural human walk...

Of course, but you've changed the formula. I've never tried to dance apilado by myself.

...Yes, certainly the follower can be put in this kind of lean and that's fine for many non-walking (for the follower) situations as volcadas, calesitas or just pauses. Many milongueros love to do that in pauses. But for any decent, let alone elegant walking? No way...

There is a way, and it's enjoyable.

...Again, this kind of lean should not be confused with sharing weight from the center of one's torso, something which is not only fine but in fact it is required for tango to happen. There is always a shared weight, it might be 20 grams but it's there. Now what the upper bound is for this shared weight is a matter of personal preference.

As just mentioned, lots of tango can be done without sharing weight.

It sounds as if you are saying you don't lean, but you do share weight. I don't get your distinction. Maybe we're just having a semantic difference on that point. I just know that when I dance, and when lots of other people dance, they do lean together, creating a shared balance.

 

[Steve Pastor]

I wholeheartedly reject is the very statement that tango can be danced while leaning with the WHOLE body ( that is, from one's center of mass of the whole body which is located in the pelvis area for women and a bit above for me).

Tango can't be danced this way?

that thing about leaning with the whole body, leaning from the ankles, etc., is simply objectively, conceptually wrong.

objectively, conceptually wrong????
How so?

For the record, I was most certainly taught to dance one version of AT this way by among others. Susanna Miller and Cacho Dante, Miller's one time disciple Robert Hauk, and Steven Payne who stated that he learned this style from milongueros in Buenos Aires. I myself, along with many different partners have danced this style many times over a number of years.

 

[Steve Pastor]

one’s center of gravity (or rather it’s projection on the floor) is never pushed further than to the top of

Well, yeah, but the two partners have created a shared axis that is between the center of gravity that is located within their bodies.
As someone wrote in this thread, if you don't have this shared axis, you aren't dancing apilado.

 

[Subliminal]

Even without apilado, I would argue that the forward lean comes from the ankles in close and open. It doesn't have to be much, but it's still there.

 

[Angel HI]

OK, now try to take a step, forward or backward. Something not so pleasant happens, right? You lose most of your balance. This kind of lean is simply not compatible with the natural human walk.

This is simply untrue.

 

[bordertangoman]

Sometimes a view from above can help...

no pun intended