Changing the embrace..pleasing or not?

#81
Wait wait wait.

So you don't bend at the ankles.

So you don't bend at the hips.

You bend at the torso?! The hips and ankles are natural hinges... bending at the ankles is certainly possible, I freakin do it every time I go out dancing. Bending at the hips is possible, but uncomfortable. Bending at the torso... the spine is certainly flexible, but to get the right amount of lean would require collapsing the chest and hunching forward. Definitely not natural or comfortable. The most "natural" and comfortable position for the spine is straightened, with support by the surrounding muscles. You have to bend SOMEWHERE to get the space for your feet. Where are you bending?
Subliminal, I agree with most of what you've said above. The problem is simply that you don't read carefully, sorry:)

First, I've never said that bending at the ankles is impossible but that while walking the angle at this bending changes from acute to obtuse, hence it just doesn't make sense to talk about constant geometric lean from the ankles.

Second, I've never said "bend from the torso" ( that doesn't make much sense anyway) but lean from the torso's center. Here lean means "apply force from a center of mass of an object". Perhaps a better verb is "to share weight", but apparently I already caught the bad habit of using "lean" and "share weight" interchangeably from this forum :)...
I promise to use "lean" only to mean "geometric lean" in the future.

Finally, how do you make more space for one's feet, you ask. I'd say you use the natural S-shape of your spine and make it slightly more expressive, again, using the natural flexibility of the body. Bending at a hinge is а too mechanical idea and it doesn't describe the situation well.

Ampster: Any video of say Javier and Geraldin will do, they have what I'd call the ideal posture. Of course, not all good dancers have exactly the same posture, but rather milder versions of it, so to speak:)
 

Ampster

Active Member
#82
Ampster: Any video of say Javier and Geraldin will do, they have what I'd call the ideal posture. Of course, not all good dancers have exactly the same posture, but rather milder versions of it, so to speak:)
Thank you. I get it. It looks like "Milonguero" to me— minus the embellishments, of course.

[YT]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HKY30XWHK_o&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HKY30XWHK_o&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YT]
 
#83
Subliminal, I agree with most of what you've said above. The problem is simply that you don't read carefully, sorry:)

First, I've never said that bending at the ankles is impossible but that while walking the angle at this bending changes from acute to obtuse, hence it just doesn't make sense to talk about constant geometric lean from the ankles.

Second, I've never said "bend from the torso" ( that doesn't make much sense anyway) but lean from the torso's center. Here lean means "apply force from a center of mass of an object". Perhaps a better verb is "to share weight", but apparently I already caught the bad habit of using "lean" and "share weight" interchangeably from this forum :)...
I promise to use "lean" only to mean "geometric lean" in the future.

Finally, how do you make more space for one's feet, you ask. I'd say you use the natural S-shape of your spine and make it slightly more expressive, again, using the natural flexibility of the body. Bending at a hinge is а too mechanical idea and it doesn't describe the situation well.

Ampster: Any video of say Javier and Geraldin will do, they have what I'd call the ideal posture. Of course, not all good dancers have exactly the same posture, but rather milder versions of it, so to speak:)
You mean press the chest (front of torso) into the partner. Trying to press inside of them, like a boxer has to punch past an opponent. As opposed to bending at waist like a hinge like you would for leapfrog game.

I find a deep breath helps to inflate the girth from the spine so will give you the space required. I found in the last few months you need to follow that initial embrace inflation by breatihing into the abdomen. The chest is not rising and falling and helps to maintain good constant contact throughout the dance.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#87
Certainly what you are describing is quite unpleasant and I have experienced it but that's not my point.

What I wholeheartedly reject is the very statement that tango can be danced while leaning with the WHOLE body ( that is, from one's center of mass of the whole body which is located in the pelvis area for women and a bit above for me).

I don't like (what I feel to be) a lot of resistance at the torso level but that's my personal preference, while that thing about leaning with the whole body, leaning from the ankles, etc., is simply objectively, conceptually wrong.
Then we just have to agree to disagree.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#88
God, I've been gone a year and things are still the same. Though why I should be surprised I don't know.

In a lot of these discussions I just want to say, listen to Zoops and Peaches and just shut the f up.

Larry Carroll - L. de Los Angeles
:D

Yeah!
Everyone listen to me and shut up! :p
(ok... listen to Peaches too... what do we do if Peaches and I disagree? Has that ever happened?)
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#89
Explanation: These are the two legs of a human being in the middle of a step. While making a step the angle which your leg forms with the ground changes from obtuse to acute. To be even more explicit , in the symbol above the angle at the front leg is acute and the angle at the back leg is obtuse. Obviously that fact of life is not compatible with the idea that one leans forward from the ankles above uniformly. The only way to achieve something like that would be to try to step with knees bent at constant angle throughout the step , a rather ugly sight, which I hope no one is advocating:)
Unless I'm completely misunderstanding you, to me, you have it backwards... what we are espousing requires that you NOT maintain the exact bend in both knees the whole time. In fact, flexible knees are required.

So your picture:
/\

isn't very useful as a visual aid, because there are no knees in these legs.

should look more like this:
/ \
\ \

and at the point that the front leg is:
/
/

the back leg will be
/
\

OK... that picture doesn't work too well...

what I mean is that the leg straightens to extend and bends as weight is applied. If I'm leaning, there isn't a point where both legs are straight at the same time with my weight centered over them (and I can't draw it with punctuation). In fact, If I am leaning, my weight CAN"T be centered over my legs as I'm transferring weight. If it was, I wouldn't be leaning anymore.

(edited becase DF eliminated my extra spaces, so my pictures don't line up... How do people make punctuation pictures work?)
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#90
TThat is exactly what apilado is, and the diagram, if I had to make one, would be much like what you've shown. Again, it is entirely possible for two people, together, to walk like that.

Is something being lost in translation?
My impression was that the diagram was of the legs only.
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
#91
Thank you. I get it. It looks like "Milonguero" to me— minus the embellishments, of course.

[yt]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HKY30XWHK_o&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HKY30XWHK_o&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/yt]
Oooh, I love that video!
 

Subliminal

Well-Known Member
#92
*steals the song* More milonga music! (Dude, I need to find some more tangos I like. I think 60% of my practice list is now Vals and Milonga.)
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#95
The problem is simply that you don't read carefully, sorry:)
Since quite a few people didn't understand you, perhaps blaming the readers is not particularly productive (or accurate?). This was not the only response you gave that was somewhat insulting to the person to whom it was addressed. It seems to me you could make your point without these sorts of comments.

If you were intending to be funny or joking, it's not reading that way to me.
 
#96
Bending your spin will give you a hunched posture. I don’t see that in Geraldine’s and Javier’s vid. If I take a look at this example I recognize the usual slight leaning forward in Javier’s dancing – starting from the ankles just as it should have been "impossible".
Would it be fair to say that the look of Geraldine's back comes from a tilt in the pelvis rather than any messing around with the spine?
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
#98
Would it be fair to say that the look of Geraldine's back comes from a tilt in the pelvis rather than any messing around with the spine?
Speaking only from personal experience, I could say that it could just be that she's female and has a butt. I can't tell you the number of times my teacher would stop and ask me if I was arching my back and not keeping my center toned...it didn't feel like it to him, but it looked like it in the mirror. After a couple of times of me telling him that, no, I was not arching my back, I was keeping my center toned, I was not sticking my butt out...he learned that I just have an a$$. I'd have to really tuck my pelvis under in order to not have that curve from my lower back to my butt. Heels don't help with this.

I'd wager that Geraldine has the same thing going on.

ETA: I think the look of her back is also exacerbated by her clothing. The bottom hem of her shirt stays level and straight, but the front of the skirt is a bit lower than the back. It's natural, it happens. It just accentuates the look of having her pelvis tilted back.
 

Joe

Well-Known Member
#99
Um, she's wearing spiky heels, the effect of which is to lengthen the leg line, and also tilt the pelvis, causing the butt and boobs to stick out.
 
Since quite a few people didn't understand you, perhaps blaming the readers is not particularly productive (or accurate?). This was not the only response you gave that was somewhat insulting to the person to whom it was addressed. It seems to me you could make your point without these sorts of comments.

If you were intending to be funny or joking, it's not reading that way to me.
Sorry, I stop with this topic here.
I use the language of basic mechanics and anatomy and I have defined precisely all terms mentioned in this language.
From the other side I hear only self-referential highly ambiguous "tango" jargon of the type "I mean what I mean, what my teacher meant to mean", etc.

For example, I asked several times for a definition of what "leaning from the ankles" should mean. There was no response.
You can't define it, but you're all convinced that it's true:)

If you can't define the expressions you use in standard mechanical/geometrical terms, I really don't see a common ground for discussion.
 

Dance Ads