Changing the embrace..pleasing or not?

[Zoopsia59]

many followers
want to change it for themselves largely because they aren't comfortable
with or have never learned the following the chest with their chest embrace..

I have the opposite perspective. ie: Leaders that haven't learned to make proper contact.

I learned "milonguero" CE first and have no trouble at all following it. However, I open the embrace sometimes with a leader who is trying to dance CE but can't make a good enough connection for me to feel his lead in my body. This is probably most common when the guy collapses his chest and has his shoulders and head more projected than his ribcage. I can only project mine so far into his concave shape!

I doubt this is what is happening to you, but sometimes when the follower opens the embrace with a leader, its not because she doesn't know what she's doing.. its because the leader isn't doing what she needs.

 

[Zoopsia59]

It also seems to force the embrace into a more upright posture.

I agree that a flexible embrace requires that you have little to no apilado. When I first started learning to dance with leaders who used changing embrace, I made the mistake of going back into too much lean every time we closed. It made it harder to open since I was not completely on my own balance. But I had learned to dance with lean first, and learning to dance CE without any lean was a new concept for me at the time. I had too separate in my mind (and bod) giving forward pressure and creating pressure by leaning.

 

[Mladenac]

double

 

[opendoor]

Hi Zoop, please excuse me, because what follows may sound a bit like in a knowing-it-all manner. We haven´t danced yet, but it would be much easier for me to demonstrate in your arms, than to stutter in your language. And anyway I still would call myself a beginner.

But what you stated above is the core problem of so many ambitious apilado dancers (how much lean, in or out of balance, shared or not-shared axis, forward pressure...)

Lean is AN illusion! To be a sophisticated apilado dancer you dare not dance "apilado" ! (And it was a stony way to get to this insight)

I did it the wrong way (if you remember all my awakening stories posted here on DF). I first learned apilado, and dancing OE afterwards. But open is much more complicated than close and requires a lot more of body awareness and control! So many good followers find apilado awful. Why? So many leaders thinks they can dance this way (tango teachers inclusive), but so few actually do.

 

[Peaches]

Hi Zoop, please excuse me, because what follows may sound a bit like in a knowing-it-all manner. We haven´t danced yet, but it would be much easier for me to demonstrate in your arms, than to stutter in your language. And anyway I still would call myself a beginner.

But what you stated above is the core problem of so many ambitious apilado dancers (how much lean, in or out of balance, shared or not-shared axis, forward pressure...)

Lean is AN illusion! To be a sophisticated apilado dancer you dare not dance "apilado" ! (And it was a stony way to get to this insight)

I did it the wrong way (if you remember all my awakening stories posted here on DF). I first learned apilado, and dancing open afterwards. But open is much more complicated than close and requires a lot more body awareness and control!

Perhaps there is a language issue or something, but I've got to agree with Zoo on this one and wholly disagree with what you've written. You have contradicted everything that I've been taught about it.

 

[opendoor]

..everything that I've been taught about it.

Hi Peaches, more important is, how YOU would teach it right now. By the way, how late is it from where you are posting?

 

[Peaches]

I don't teach at all. What does that have to do with anything?

Right now it 9:56am, according to my computer clock.

 

[opendoor]

I mean, what someone teaches must not be the right solution for everybody. I only posted my own experiences, I do not teach too, but if I had to, I only could pass on what I have gone through.

(Thought it would be much earlier in the night. So, good morning! )

OD 4:05 pm

 

[Peaches]

I mean, what someone teaches must not be the right solution for everybody. I only posted my own experiences, I do not teach too, but if I had to, I only could pass on what I have gone through.

(Thought it would be much earlier in the night. So, good morning! )

OD 4:05 pm

*shrug* I learned that there are several different varieties of close embrace, one of which has a real (not illusion) lean, with shared weight and a shared axis. (And no, JohnEm, I am not going to get into this friggin' discussion...again.) Other styles had an illusion of a lean. YMMV.

 

[AndaBien]

...Lean is an illusion! To be a sophisticated apilado dancer you dare not dance "apilado"! ...

I consider myself an apilado dancer, and I guarantee, leaning is not an illusion. I'm confident that all my partners would agree with me, because they lean also. My first apilado teacher, Susana Miller, insisted on a very definite lean. I also teach sometimes, and I teach my students to lean.

Some people have never figured out how to make apilado work for themselves. They should probably quit trying eventually and adopt a different style. Maybe they have adopted a different style (CE), but just don't know it.

 

[dchester]

Hi Zoop, please excuse me, because what follows may sound a bit like in a knowing-it-all manner. We haven´t danced yet, but it would be much easier for me to demonstrate in your arms, than to stutter in your language. And anyway I still would call myself a beginner.

But what you stated above is the core problem of so many ambitious apilado dancers (how much lean, in or out of balance, shared or not-shared axis, forward pressure...)

Lean is AN illusion! To be a sophisticated apilado dancer you dare not dance "apilado" ! (And it was a stony way to get to this insight)

I did it the wrong way (if you remember all my awakening stories posted here on DF). I first learned apilado, and dancing OE afterwards. But open is much more complicated than close and requires a lot more of body awareness and control! So many good followers find apilado awful. Why? So many leaders thinks they can dance this way (tango teachers inclusive), but so few actually do.

IMO, the "lean is an illusion" thing is an attribute of Villa Urquiza style, but not of the apilado embrace or milonguero style. I'm sure others have different opinions on the subject, though.

 

[opendoor]

..is an attribute of Villa Urquiza style...

1) That sounds interesting, bc VUr is a upright as can be (watch Finito) Where have you heard of this saying?

2) With volcadas there is leaning, indeed. But concerning walking, I would call it resistance, remanence, connection (as far as my on-line dictionary can imagine what I am trying to express)

 

[dchester]

1) That sounds interesting, bc VUr is a upright as can be (watch Finito) Where have you heard of this saying?

It was in a class I took on Villa Urquiza style dancing, taught by Ney Melo and Jennifer Bratt. Who knows, maybe in my next trip to BsAs, I'll get a different perspective on it. It's on my list of things to study more.

 

[Zoopsia59]

2) With volcadas there is leaning, indeed. But concerning walking, I would call it resistance, remanence, connection (as far as my on-line dictionary can imagine what I am trying to express)

I'm pretty sure we understand what you are trying to express.. we just don't agree. Here in the states, some styles are taught with a real (not illusion) lean. Its not as pronounced as a volcada, but its there.

In another post, you state that it is only your experience that you are expressing, but you also have stated in bold "There is no lean.. it is an illusion", as though that is an absolute. You can't have it both ways. Either you are trying to make a hard and fast rule for everyone, or you are stating your experience and allow that others may have learned a different style which is legitimate. At the moment, I'm not clear which way you are going.

I do find this conversation interesting considering your avatar.

 

[Zoopsia59]

It was in a class I took on Villa Urquiza style dancing, taught by Ney Melo and Jennifer Bratt. Who knows, maybe in my next trip to BsAs, I'll get a different perspective on it. It's on my list of things to study more.

I think you and OD are actually in agreement on this, but OD misunderstood you to say that the lean is real in VillaU.

What I thought you were saying is that the idea of the lean being an illusion (and therefore NOT real) is a hallmark of VU.

That would make it fit with what OD is saying.