Close Embrace clinic-the leads responsibility on the women's left.

Two more BIG questions on the outside CE dance...when outside woman's right or left in either parallel or crossed footed; First question: ..is it true that the man's inside shoulder will lag behind his outside shoulder instead of being straight on squared with the body and line of dance...

Absolutely. The leader must twist his shoulders toward his partner.

...Second question; ..in any case (above) would the womans steps to the rear be the same with each leg or in some combination does she shorten one of the leg's steps??

Depends. If you lead her to walk in a straight line, her steps should be of equal length. If you lead her to walk in a curve, one step would be shorter. Also, you could lead her to take some steps longer than others. Sometimes I like to syncopate the steps and also take alternating larger and smaller steps.
 
Two more BIG questions on the outside CE dance...when outside woman's right or left in either parallel or crossed footed; First question: ..is it true that the man's inside shoulder will lag behind his outside shoulder instead of being straight on squared with the body and line of dance.
Second question; ..in any case (above) would the womans steps to the rear be the same with each leg or in some combination does she shorten one of the leg's steps??

1) Yes.
And I"m glad you are thinking of it as holding one shoulder BACK, rather than thinking about moving the other shoulder FORWARD. Its a little distinction, but makes a big difference in how you hold your posture and chest.

2) her step length is determined by you. I can't think of a reason there would be a particular step that would automatically be shorter than the others when you are walking outside of her in flat-on embrace. She is just reaching straight back... the outside partner walking is achieved through your UPPER body. The angle of her reach is not affected unless she is unable to dissasociate her hips from her shoulders, so therefore, I would not expect there to be a problem with one leg reaching less. At least, not as a RULE... maybe as a quirk with a particular follower.

Disclaimer... in a V-embrace, her reach is NOT directly perpendicular to her hip line because her hips are at an angle to the line of dance. In that case, I suppose its possible that the open leg can move further than the other leg. (ie: if her body/hips are angled 45* to you in the V, and open into the center of the room.. which they would be in a V, her right leg is the one I call "open" to her hips) So possibly her right leg can reach more than the left) I don't dance a V-embrace, so I'm not sure how some of the mechanics and geometry are affected.
 
I didn't know that V embrace means also rotated hips.

I was taught that hips should always be where the partner following i.e. backstep
 
I didn't know that V embrace means also rotated hips.

I was taught that hips should always be where the partner following i.e. backstep

It seems to me that most followers I've seen in a V-embrace have their hips in line with their own shoulders which would place them at an angle to the leader just as the upper body is at an angle.

That would mean that the hips aren't 90* to the LOD, but more like 45* ot the LOD. Dancing with the shoulders at 45* to the leader and the hips parallel with the leader for an entire dance or evening would be pretty uncomfortable.
 
the hips will go naturally where they need to go in order to maintain balance and center.

It would be great if that were always true, but it isn't. At least not for me. Not in Tango, not in skating and not in ballet. Hips going where they shouldn't go, or not going where they should go is a fairly common problem in many movement forms for a large percentage of people. Or maybe it's more of a problem for females because of the different structure of the pelvis.
 
It would be great if that were always true, but it isn't. At least not for me. Not in Tango, not in skating and not in ballet. Hips going where they shouldn't go, or not going where they should go is a fairly common problem in many movement forms for a large percentage of people. Or maybe it's more of a problem for females because of the different structure of the pelvis.
Actually, it is more correct than you think. I will not venture as to men/women, but, the greatest problem with bodies not going where they should go naturally is the head. I don't mean where we place it, etc. I mean letting it get in the way of the movement. Don't think... just do!

Our bodies know to stand up straight; balance; walk in a rhythmic fashion; even turn and remain in control. It is when we seek to apply all sorts of technique/s (in AT, skating, and ballet) other than just allowing the body to move naturally, that we interfere with its movement. Students must learn that dance is not to make the body do something unnatural, rather to enhance/control what the body will do naturally. It is a known fact in kinesiology that the feet/legs will naturally go directly under the shoulders when allowed. Since they are attached to the core (center of balance) at the hips, the hips will go as well.

Now, I'm not saying that you haven't experienced those things that you mentioned. Neither am I saying that these problems do not exist. Yet, I know that the reason is not that it doesn't go naturally, rather often times what we 'think' is natural is not, at all.
 
Actually, it is more correct than you think. I will not venture as to men/women, but, the greatest problem with bodies not going where they should go naturally is the head. I don't mean where we place it, etc. I mean letting it get in the way of the movement. Don't think... just do!

Oh isn't that easier said than done! It's a question of having the
confidence and ability to relax in the right way. If only there was
a magic key!

Our bodies know to stand up straight; balance; walk in a rhythmic fashion; even turn and remain in control. It is when we seek to apply all sorts of technique/s (in AT, skating, and ballet) other than just allowing the body to move naturally, that we interfere with its movement. Students must learn that dance is not to make the body do something unnatural, rather to enhance/control what the body will do naturally. It is a known fact in kinesiology that the feet/legs will naturally go directly under the shoulders when allowed. Since they are attached to the core (center of balance) at the hips, the hips will go as well.

I was going to take issue with you as the Kinesiology I knew about
is a quack medicine based on the practitioner's subjective assessment
of the patient's muscle response to specifically imposed loads as a
diagnosis of bodily ailments or so called energy imbalances and blockages.
It seems to have no basis in fact and at best is contentious.

However Wkipedia calls that Applied Kinesiology, though the practitioners
both here, in the US and elsewhere don't bother usually with such
accuracy/pedantry and seem to happily call themselves kinesiologists etc.

But your usage didn't seem to be that which is why I looked further. You
are talking about Kinesiology as the study of human kinetics, meaning
physical motion, movement and function (or body mechanics) which is
a more scientific usage I'd never come across.

Now, I'm not saying that you haven't experienced those things that you mentioned. Neither am I saying that these problems do not exist. Yet, I know that the reason is not that it doesn't go naturally, rather often times what we 'think' is natural is not, at all.
So I'll agree that "the head" interferes but something else can as well.
And that is the individual's actual physical ability, be it the range of
movement or muscle strength. Many people arrive at dance (including
me originally and prior to tango) without any realisation that they are
about to ask of their body things that they don't do in normal life.

Struggle equals tension. If the body feels stretched and tested by those demands
then the necessary relaxation is impossible. For that the loads have to be
comfortably within the body's limits. Many of us come to dance later
in life unprepared and at various levels of unfitness. In an ideal world
fitness should come first but usually it doesn't. So I for one will give a big cheer
when I come across a teacher(s) who, faced with a new and unfit class,
starts with proposing a gentle regime of in-class and at-home preparation.

Perhaps it will never happen in fear of putting people off. After all many
(most?) teachers don't even start a class/workshop with a warm up. If
you are at one who does, look around at the participants at the variation
in the range of movement that individuals can achieve to get some
understanding of the problems teachers have with classes.
 
Actually, it is more correct than you think. I will not venture as to men/women, but, the greatest problem with bodies not going where they should go naturally is the head. I don't mean where we place it, etc. I mean letting it get in the way of the movement. Don't think... just do!

Our bodies know to stand up straight; balance; walk in a rhythmic fashion; even turn and remain in control. It is when we seek to apply all sorts of technique/s (in AT, skating, and ballet) other than just allowing the body to move naturally, that we interfere with its movement. Students must learn that dance is not to make the body do something unnatural, rather to enhance/control what the body will do naturally. It is a known fact in kinesiology that the feet/legs will naturally go directly under the shoulders when allowed. Since they are attached to the core (center of balance) at the hips, the hips will go as well.

Now, I'm not saying that you haven't experienced those things that you mentioned. Neither am I saying that these problems do not exist. Yet, I know that the reason is not that it doesn't go naturally, rather often times what we 'think' is natural is not, at all.


One's body may "naturally" do all sorts of things that interfere with the result one seeks. If not thinking about it and doing what comes naturally was the answer to people's problems, then they wouldn't improve when something they are doing is pointed out to them so that they can consciously change it.

Momentum is a "natural" part of movement. Halting momentum is an unnatural but necessary element to many "moves". For instance, its natural to allow the body to continue rotating when landing a skating jump. The body must work against that natural tendency to land the jump correctly. Its also natural to allow the shoulders (and hips) to over-rotate on take-off because the head is turned to be over the shoulder. "Spotting" in ballet is not "natural".

Social tango is not as demanding as these other things, but still requires some measure of movement that is not natural to many adults who take up tango. My hips tend to "naturally" continue to rotate past the point they should on quite a few moves in tango, ballet, skating, and other dances. (and I come to tango with far more background in movement than most people) Technique? Strength? Whatever it is, IGNORING it won't improve it! As you said.. "the hips will go as well".. And in me, they will KEEP going!

Some people are NOT naturally "coordinated". Some people are not strong in the parts of their body that need to be strong. Yes, some people start moving stiffly and unaturally (even for them) as soon as they come into a dance class, but not everyone is a natural dancer either and their own "natural" way of moving may not be conducive to tango or some other thing they want to take up.

If we could all just do tango naturally, then classes where steps are taught would be all we need.
 

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