Close embrace

Guys, too much headaches for little :cool:

I was only concerned about milonguero ochos. I've just said that Cristina is doing right because her dissociation is clear and occurs first prior to moving the leg. More than average followers are doing wrong. If you can't see the differences between Cristina's technique and others' then it can't be helped. It's like trying to show the differences between red and green to daltonien people.

Cruzada is *not* a diagonal step. It's just a cross foot replacement.
And again...no. Your ignorance is showing.

It isn't a matter of not being able to see the difference. It's a matter of actually understanding that there are two equally valid types of ochos. Period.

Why don't you post a video of what you consider to be good dancing? Or post a video of yourself dancing well?
 
And again...no. Your ignorance is showing.

It isn't a matter of not being able to see the difference. It's a matter of actually understanding that there are two equally valid types of ochos. Period.

Why don't you post a video of what you consider to be good dancing? Or post a video of yourself dancing well?

I can't post links so you'll have to search yourself and I've already given you names.

Or you can post videos instead and I'll tell you what's right and what's wrong.
 
I've just said that Cristina is doing right because her dissociation is clear and occurs first prior to moving the leg. More than average followers are doing wrong. If you can't see the differences between Cristina's technique and others' then it can't be helped.

No intention to argue with Shaka (that would be a waste of time), but just to put the record straight about Cristina. In this video "Tango Lesson: Dynamic Turns & Wraps in Close Embrace", she crosses her legs doing turns. She does not "dissociate" (pivot). Check her explanation and then the demo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-YRXS9iNTs


Shaka, obviously English is not your native language, so maybe you are not aware of how rude and laughable your pronouncements are. It's ok. You can enjoy the benefit of the doubt.
 
I know that a cross can be led from almost any position, and that, with skill, can seem to be created out of almost nothing. (I can't do it, but I accept that more experienced leaders can). I think I know that the follower never crosses (indepentantly), but that the cross is created by the leader. The follower 'crosses' because it is where her moving foot ends up in the position in which she finds herself. It is natural, comfortable and easy. Not to cross would be unnatural, uncomfortable and difficult.

with you so far. (although there are those who say the follower should cross as a default unless prevented... I am NOT one of those people)

The easiest position from which to lead a cross is in a series of walking steps, and if we took steps 345 from the dreaded 8CB, we have follower walking back LRL, but she finds that on the last step, her natural backward walk has led her to take one foot over the other into the cruzada. But she just walked backwards, and the idea of stepping diagonally never presented itself.

Well, she isn't thinking about stepping diagonally, true. She is thinking of stepping back. But the path on the floor that her foot takes ends up being diagonal (slightly, but diagonal, nonetheless)

But this raises the question.. are we talking about diagonal to the line of dance or diagonal to her pelvis? In the case of the side,back,back,cross walk, something somewhere is going to be diagonal to her pelvis, and unless some of it is also diagonal to the line of dance, the couple will migrate to the center of the room rather than remain in their lane.

So what made the follower cross in the typical setup found in the 8CB? The most obvious answer, to me, was that if the movement was taught IN the 8CB, she crossed because the teacher told her to. All the ladies have just spent three minutes dancing those 8 steps solo to the teacher's count, and they are about to come together and find that they can dance tango - viola!

yep... too often true! haha

But seriously, why does the follower cross? I looked at the structure of the 8CB, and having missed out the backstep, took the sidestep to my left, a little wider than my partner, and with a fair bit of body rotation to my right, and then led her back by stepping forward with a marked left side lead from my own torso, while moving straight down the line of dance. I put a little additional acceleration into my fourth step (LF), slightly disturbing my partner's balance, and then as I moved to my own close, hopefully communicating a cessation of forward intention together with the reversal of my initial body rotation, my partner took the opportunity to recover her own balance by the cruzada. I set it up: she just stepped back. But it was back - not consciously diagonal, and had it not been for that rotation, led while her foot was in movement, the feet would have passed, and we would have carried on down the floor.

Or would we?

ok... first of all, I agree with Peaches that there is no imbalance specific to this step. You could say that EVERY step involves a change in balance because the weight changes to the other foot. If the follower just stood there, yes, she'd be off balance while the leader goes about the lead. But she moves to stay with him and therefore remains on balance (unless they are sharing.. let's not go there for the purpose of this discussion) So cruzada is no more off balance than any other step. They all involve her keeping her balance by moving where she's led.

What does happen is that if she is led to cross and she resists crossing, she will find she can't balance and have to get to the cross to get back on balance. It's possible that as you learned to lead this step and danced with followers who were not yet following it smoothly, you felt this "lost/regained" balance. But it is not permanently inherent in the step, it's just part of the learning process for followers.

Now.. on to the real question... when it works, why does she cross? What you say is pretty much how I teach it: Body rotation in order to maintain a connection when stepping "outside partner" and a return of the rotation helps send the follower to the cross because it also brings the follower back in front of the leader (eliminating the outside partner walk) However, I disagree that no diagonal in the path of her foot travel is involved. (see above)

If she needs to be consciously thinking "diagonal" for it to qualify as a diagonal, that's a rather odd requirement. Even in a traveling crossed ocho, she should be reaching her leg straight back from her pelvis not diagonally to it. However, due to the leader's slight diagonal movement, the actual landing point of her foot, as determined by where he takes her, will be diagonal to her pelvis. If it isn't, she's no longer connected squarely to him directly in front. She reaches straight back because she can't know until he places her how diagonal he will take her. If she reached diagonally, she would be anticipating the placement of her foot and might have to adjust.

In other words, she reaches straight back but he places her so that she lands diagonally. If she kept her front foot on the floor (basically stopping mid-step) you would see that her legs are actually both diagonal to her pelvis when her foot gets placed. HOW diagonal depends on how he places her.

Two other points (which relate to each other):

Whether or not you cease the forward movement as she crosses depends on whether you are walking in parallel or crossfeet. You can walk her right through the cross without slowing or changing the forward movement

Two: Yes, if you rotate to get to outside partner walking and you remain rotated, you will just keep walking down the floor outside of her without her crossing. In fact, doing this is a good exercise for both the leader and the follower.

So the point is: It's the change in upper body rotation that gets her to walk to the cross. The presence or absence of forward momentum is not the key.
 
For the eyes of the curious ONLY - and in answer to a direct question ....

A (Natural) Pivot: By definition, "A turn to the right on the ball of the LF holding the RF in front in contrary body movement position".

Pivots are usually danced by the man, stepping backwards, while lady dances the counterpart, a Pivoting Action (A turn to the right on the ball of the RF, the LF NOT held in CBMP). The turn is executed on the ball of foot, but the feet are not closed, but apart.

There is no real basis for comparison with AT, as AT does not (to the best of the writer's knowledge) have a concept of contrary body movement (from which the related foot position is derived). To a casual observer, a series of repeated pivots can look as though man and lady are rocking backwards and forwards, with their feet apart, turning about a 1/2 turn on each step, and thus moving along the line of dance, taking it in turns to take forward and backward steps, each time turning around each other, on a spot created by the closely placed feet between them. That's not an accurate description of what is happening, mechanically, but that's what it looks like.

A 'swivel' is like an AT forward step with pivot, the turn is on the balls of feet, with the feet together. In AT (to the best of the writer's knowledge), this action can be danced forwards or backwards. The defined tango technique of at least one teaching society makes the equivalence explicit between a 'ballroom' swivel and a tango 'pivot', and my saying so will now probably be the cue for someone, predictably, to post that the teaching societies should mind their own business etc. If they do, don't expect me to respond. The bait doesn't taste agreeable.

It doesn't surprise me in the least that you can get around a ballroom floor, as a tango follower, because you have nearly all the tools to succeed. Lead & follow is the essence of ballroom dancing (and most of the people who try it, can't do it very well), but it remains of the essence. If you establish a connection with someone who can lead, you'll be amazed at what might happen next. Unfortunately, if your main interest is in Viennese Waltz, your opportunities to 'pivot' are very limited, because the standardised figures do not use the action. However, outside the constraints of international style competition (where only the standardised figures are permissable), it is perfectly acceptable to dance a series of natural pivots, and their use in the 123 123 rhythm create a new rhythm 12 31 23, which is great fun to try.

Actually, swivels in standard and latin are quite differents because in standard the leg moves before the body (but the body still turns first). There are exceptions like in paso doble. Swivels/Ochos in argentine tango are much like (if not the same as) in latin with the exception of dissociations.
 
No intention to argue with Shaka (that would be a waste of time), but just to put the record straight about Cristina. In this video "Tango Lesson: Dynamic Turns & Wraps in Close Embrace", she crosses her legs doing turns. She does not "dissociate" (pivot). Check her explanation and then the demo.

Shaka, obviously English is not your native language, so maybe you are not aware of how rude and laughable your pronouncements are. It's ok. You can enjoy the benefit of the doubt.

English is not my native language and I address my apologizes may I look rude. But I'm not talking about turns. I'm talking about backward ochos which involve moves in the diagonals, like an '8' pattern if viewed from the top.
 
Guys, too much headaches for little :cool:
Yes, hopefully it is not your intent to come across as a rude and ignorant person, but it does cause a lot of headaches for us all in trying to clear up your confusion.

I was only concerned about milonguero ochos.
I'm glad to hear you are starting to learn a few things. As I recall in your original post, you seemed to think this type of ocho was from some afro style, or whatever you called it. At least now, you appear to know what they actually are called.

I've just said that Cristina is doing right because her dissociation is clear and occurs first prior to moving the leg. More than average followers are doing wrong. If you can't see the differences between Cristina's technique and others' then it can't be helped. It's like trying to show the differences between red and green to daltonien people.
OK, here is where you are holding a sign and begging for further tutelage.
1) No one has said that Cristina is doing them wrong.
2) We all know the difference between ochos done with pivoting, vs milonguero ochos.
3) (and this is the point you continually keep missing) They both are valid ways to do ochos. I'm sure this is a difficult concept for you to grasp, but you've progressed so far already, so I think it's within you, to some day grasp this concept as well.

Cruzada is *not* a diagonal step. It's just a cross foot replacement.
Words can't express the gratitude I have for someone as learned as you to finally clear this up for us all. I look forward to your next informative post.

icon7.gif
 
English is not my native language and I address my apologizes may I look rude. But I'm not talking about turns. I'm talking about backward ochos which involve moves in the diagonals, like an '8' pattern if viewed from the top.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2TVJdLQO-M
what is Cristina doing at 0.51? what would you call this?

and here are a student's note about the lesson (http://tangostudent.blogspot.com/2010/02/vanilla-bean-ocho-baby-back-volcada.html)

"VANILLA BEAN OCHO – an ocho with no Follower hip pivot

First, we began with an exercise:

We were to dance in close embrace with just walking and back ochos. For the Follower, she should have no pivot in these Vanilla Bean, close embrace style ochos, and to keep her chest in consistent contact with the Leader. Because the Follower’s hip pivot is a direct reflection of the Leader’s chest movements, he needed to have no shoulder/chest turn either. He needed to keep his chest silent, in order for her to have NO pivot in her back ocho steps. These back ocho steps are back cross steps, with no fan, but keeping them tight and simple, with no bounce and no hip pivot. In getting around the corners of the room, it was OK to have some pivot to maneuver the curve. "

Shaka, maybe you should do your homework better? ;)
 
Thank you for writing such a detailed response: much to think about.

with you so far. (although there are those who say the follower should cross as a default unless prevented... I am NOT one of those people)

I hope I conveyed that I am not either!

Well, she isn't thinking about stepping diagonally, true. She is thinking of stepping back. But the path on the floor that her foot takes ends up being diagonal (slightly, but diagonal, nonetheless).

I'm in perfect agreement that there is a sideways component in the physical movement, and I think that we are agreed that the follower just feels a backward step. The body rotation introduced by the leader has both walking somewhat crab-like with a side lead, which is why they don't ever move off the line of dance, and surely, no one intends to mean moving towards the centre of the room in the use of 'diagonal' terminology, me, least of all.

I agree with Peaches that there is no imbalance specific to this step ..... What does happen is that if she is led to cross and she resists crossing, she will find she can't balance and have to get to the cross to get back on balance. It's possible that as you learned to lead this step and danced with followers who were not yet following it smoothly, you felt this "lost/regained" balance. But it is not permanently inherent in the step, it's just part of the learning process for followers.

I can't reconcile those statements. She doesn't need to cross to 'get back' on balance if she never left it: you can't have it both ways! I think, though, that words are not doing justice to the subtle movement involved, and we don't really disagree (Peaches is welcome to tell me, again, that she does!). And no, I don't mean that I have felt a beginner follower's imbalance, but that I have deliberately created it, but perhaps I could explain better what I do mean.

My first teacher talked about an 'increase (or was it 'build up') in energy on the left side', and that was something that I couldn't make much of, without further explanation. I eventually observed a lengthening of the step immediately preceding the cross, and concluded that in order to keep the steps falling rhythmically that required an increase in the speed of body flight (and I'm sorry that that is a ballroom term - I don't do it to offend, it's just available vocabulary!). The acceleration of movement, matched by the cessation of movement over two steps (which might otherwise have just been two steps of equal length and even flight) is what I originally described as creating and resolving imbalance. The follower might feel a 'push' to a longer step, followed by one suddenly shorter, accompanied with rotation, such that the backward movement of the LF becomes, rather than another back step, a shortened crossing of the feet 'up' onto the toe to recover position in front of the leader. Perhaps 'balance' is a bad choice of word to use. What would be a better one?

Now.. on to the real question... when it works, why does she cross? What you say is pretty much how I teach it: Body rotation in order to maintain a connection when stepping "outside partner" and a return of the rotation helps send the follower to the cross because it also brings the follower back in front of the leader (eliminating the outside partner walk) However, I disagree that no diagonal in the path of her foot travel is involved. (see above)

If she needs to be consciously thinking "diagonal" for it to qualify as a diagonal, that's a rather odd requirement. Even in a traveling crossed ocho, she should be reaching her leg straight back from her pelvis not diagonally to it. However, due to the leader's slight diagonal movement, the actual landing point of her foot, as determined by where he takes her, will be diagonal to her pelvis. If it isn't, she's no longer connected squarely to him directly in front. She reaches straight back because she can't know until he places her how diagonal he will take her. If she reached diagonally, she would be anticipating the placement of her foot and might have to adjust.

In other words, she reaches straight back but he places her so that she lands diagonally. If she kept her front foot on the floor (basically stopping mid-step) you would see that her legs are actually both diagonal to her pelvis when her foot gets placed. HOW diagonal depends on how he places her.

Even having defined what I meant by my usage of the term 'diagonal', I have been misunderstood, in that I'm not denying the sideways component in the step, but I'm happy to see that we are in agreement that the direction of the foot's movement is backwards. It's my hang-up, rather than anyone else's (as previously mentioned, but I still got jumped on) but there is a distinction to be made between the relative position of the feet, and how they got there. If anyone ever got around to authoring a technique for this dance that could gain general acceptance, the definition of a working vocabulary wold be very interesting (and would save a lot of bickering), and such concepts would have to be addressed before you could express the nature of the required movements as text. Of course it could be done: but no one has done it.

Two other points (which relate to each other):

Whether or not you cease the forward movement as she crosses depends on whether you are walking in parallel or crossfeet. You can walk her right through the cross without slowing or changing the forward movement.

Yes, of course, but my comment was in the context of the 8CB, so moving in parallel. I accept what you say about leading the cruzada in cross system, and also your second point, not quoted.
 
Yes, hopefully it is not your intent to come across as a rude and ignorant person, but it does cause a lot of headaches for us all in trying to clear up your confusion.

I'm glad to hear you are starting to learn a few things. As I recall in your original post, you seemed to think this type of ocho was from some afro style, or whatever you called it. At least now, you appear to know what they actually are called.

I didn't use the expression "milonguero" because what I have to say applies both to close and very close embrace. An ignorant person like me is well aware of the world of dance in general. I did take lessons of that (rather) new afro-style tango dance called "kizomba". And you? What do you know about dance? You're doing well answering to people with their own words but so far you haven't shared your huge knowledge. Should I consider you're more ignorant than me?

1) No one has said that Cristina is doing them wrong.

That's not the point. I'm telling that there's differences between her milonguero ochos and the average ones'. And that her technique is right. Others' is unelegant and wrong.

2) We all know the difference between ochos done with pivoting, vs milonguero ochos.

There should be no differences.

3) (and this is the point you continually keep missing) They both are valid ways to do ochos. I'm sure this is a difficult concept for you to grasp, but you've progressed so far already, so I think it's within you, to some day grasp this concept as well.

That is someting I don't agree with. You can't tell (ballroom) rumba dancers to bend their legs as if they were dancing (ballroom) cha-cha or whatever. It's just unelegant. Maybe valid for you but quite unelegant for people like me.

Words can't express the gratitude I have for someone as learned as you to finally clear this up for us all. I look forward to your next informative post.

icon7.gif

Stay tuned ;)
 
what is Cristina doing at 0.51? what would you call this?

and here are a student's note about the lesson

"VANILLA BEAN OCHO – an ocho with no Follower hip pivot

First, we began with an exercise:

We were to dance in close embrace with just walking and back ochos. For the Follower, she should have no pivot in these Vanilla Bean, close embrace style ochos, and to keep her chest in consistent contact with the Leader. Because the Follower’s hip pivot is a direct reflection of the Leader’s chest movements, he needed to have no shoulder/chest turn either. He needed to keep his chest silent, in order for her to have NO pivot in her back ocho steps. These back ocho steps are back cross steps, with no fan, but keeping them tight and simple, with no bounce and no hip pivot. In getting around the corners of the room, it was OK to have some pivot to maneuver the curve. "

Shaka, maybe you should do your homework better? ;)

Good try, but I'm not talking about that kind of ochos. The follower still sends back her legs straight backward. That's the diagonal movements initiated by the leader that force her to cross while her legs are still in the air. I should add that there's no need for pivot / dissociation because her pelvis is already oriented (in the diagonals) by the leader.
 
Good try, but I'm not talking about that kind of ochos. The follower still sends back her legs straight backward. That's the diagonal movements initiated by the leader that force her to cross while her legs are still in the air.
Exactly. These are called ochos milonguero, or "vanilla bean ochos" by Homer. The existence of which you denied a few posts above.
 
Exactly. These are called ochos milonguero, or "vanilla bean ochos" by Homer. The existence of which you denied a few posts above.

Ok I agree these (milonguero) ochos are correct. If only most of people do them that way it would be great. Unfortunately that's not the case.
 

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