Connected Movement: An Interview with Alex Krebs

[Joy In Motion]

Last month while in Portland for Tangofest 2008, I interviewed instructor Alex Krebs on the concepts of musicality, connection, and flow. He had some very interesting thoughts on these topics.

The article is a bit too long to post on Dance Forums, but if you are interested you can read it by clicking on the link below.

I would love to hear your feedback. The concepts of musicality, connection, and flow are very dear to my heart. In fact, they are probably 90% of why I dance Argentine tango.

Connected Movement: An Interview with Alex Krebs

Enjoy!

 

[bastet]

Last month while in Portland for Tangofest 2008, I interviewed instructor Alex Krebs on the concepts of musicality, connection, and flow. He had some very interesting thoughts on these topics.

The article is a bit too long to post on Dance Forums, but if you are interested you can read it by clicking on the link below.

I would love to hear your feedback. The concepts of musicality, connection, and flow are very dear to my heart. In fact, they are probably 90% of why I dance Argentine tango.

Connected Movement: An Interview with Alex Krebs

Enjoy!

ahh Alex....my tango Zen master!

 

[Steve Pastor]

First, nice article. Nice web site.

Now, Alex's decription of "cadencia" is different than what I understand. Some sort of misunderstanding???
Still, yesterday he was at the practica I attend regularly, and at several points my then partner and I were certainly "twisting and lilting. ... the whole body reacts to the music. The whole body is sort of a musical palette rather than just the feet or legs, which tend to be the major emphasis in tango." This to canyengue/milonga with those elements being part of the music. I had learned some of this in lessons, but have really given myself license after learning more about the early, African influence in AT.

Alex is one of several Portland based teachers who have a lot to share regarding musicality.

"And then there are transcendental dances, says Alex, “in which almost nothing exists except you and your partner. Even the music doesn’t really exist. You just sort of float together and forget that you’re leading and following, and it’s just two bodies moving as one.”
I think what Alex means here is that you aren't consciously doing anything. It's "just happening". I've never seen the man NOT dance to the music. So I doubt he means , literally, that "it doesn't exist".
We practice and practice skills, doing things quite deliberately so we get them "right".
Then at some point, although our brains are still running things, we no longer have to think about it. When both parnters are there, you have that "transendence".

I also note that he did not mention the other people who are dancing at the same time (unless he was speaking of performing, which he does regularly). Alex is excellent as a "navigator". Where for some time I would be very self conscious when dancing on the same floor as my teachers, I learned that they are the best people to be near; because you don't have to worry about them doing stupid things like backing into you, leading high boleos, etc.
(This does NOT apply to many, many teachers; only the ones who are confident enough to not have to show off to prove themselves. Young bull says to old bull...)

I think it's very important to educate people that AT is a group activity, as well as being a partner dance, and think it's unfortunate that Alex missed an opportunity to talk about this. (A few years ago, when I was still going to milongas here, I talked to many of the instructors/hosts about this real need in the AT community. I only go to the one practica now, but I know at least there for a while some progress was made.)

Finally, I see that Alex mentioned his study of physics at Reed. Would that he used it more in teaching. But, I'm sure he has already found that most people don't want to go there.
I am pleased to report, however, that he has made it known that there are such things as fake boleos and ganchos, and he sees lots of them.

Again, nice article.

 

[bastet]

First, nice article. Nice web site.

Now, Alex's decription of "cadencia" is different than what I understand. Some sort of misunderstanding???
Still, yesterday he was at the practica I attend regularly, and at several points my then partner and I were certainly "twisting and lilting. ... the whole body reacts to the music. The whole body is sort of a musical palette rather than just the feet or legs, which tend to be the major emphasis in tango." This to canyengue/milonga with those elements being part of the music. I had learned some of this in lessons, but have really given myself license after learning more about the early, African influence in AT.

Alex is one of several Portland based teachers who have a lot to share regarding musicality.

"And then there are transcendental dances, says Alex, “in which almost nothing exists except you and your partner. Even the music doesn’t really exist. You just sort of float together and forget that you’re leading and following, and it’s just two bodies moving as one.”
I think what Alex means here is that you aren't consciously doing anything. It's "just happening". I've never seen the man NOT dance to the music. So I doubt he means , literally, that "it doesn't exist".
We practice and practice skills, doing things quite deliberately so we get them "right".
Then at some point, although our brains are still running things, we no longer have to think about it. When both parnters are there, you have that "transendence".

I also note that he did not mention the other people who are dancing at the same time (unless he was speaking of performing, which he does regularly). Alex is excellent as a "navigator". Where for some time I would be very self conscious when dancing on the same floor as my teachers, I learned that they are the best people to be near; because you don't have to worry about them doing stupid things like backing into you, leading high boleos, etc.
(This does NOT apply to many, many teachers; only the ones who are confident enough to not have to show off to prove themselves. Young bull says to old bull...)

I think it's very important to educate people that AT is a group activity, as well as being a partner dance, and think it's unfortunate that Alex missed an opportunity to talk about this. (A few years ago, when I was still going to milongas here, I talked to many of the instructors/hosts about this real need in the AT community. I only go to the one practica now, but I know at least there for a while some progress was made.)

Finally, I see that Alex mentioned his study of physics at Reed. Would that he used it more in teaching. But, I'm sure he has already found that most people don't want to go there.
I am pleased to report, however, that he has made it known that there are such things as fake boleos and ganchos, and he sees lots of them.

Again, nice article.

I always think it's funny when mentioning ALex and musicality, because he is so musical....he told us during a lesson one time that the first time he went to Argentina he says he had terrible musicality....terrible for him is probably passable to adequate for the rest of us!....

 

[Steve Pastor]

OOps, one more thing...

"As dancers become more musical, they are able to dance to the melody more and can pick and choose from a variety of instruments in a song. This only happens when the dancer becomes intimately familiar with the recorded music and learns to dance to the music, not on top of it. However, says Alex, the increasing popularity of live music by orchestras such as Conjunto Berretín may change how musicality is defined in Argentine tango in the coming decades."

I'm sure Alex is as aware of this as I am, but it's not in the article.
In learning about the swing bands, including the Western Swing bands that were so popular in LA when WCS was being born, and also people like Carl Perkins as he was developing what would become known a rockabilly...
Note that these musicians played for dancers, and their music developed to a large extent as a symbiotic relationships between the players and the dancers.
Without checking a source like "Tango - the Art History of Love", I can at least say that AT, like "swing" music was born in a similar environment to AT: no amplification, no recorded music. So it must have been influenced by the dancers.

We may be going back to the way it used to be (if you include Argentina, not just AT in the US since the 80s) rather than going somewhere new. (I think Alex's remarks, however, reflect an awful lot of optimism.)

 

[Joy In Motion]

"And then there are transcendental dances, says Alex, “in which almost nothing exists except you and your partner. Even the music doesn’t really exist. You just sort of float together and forget that you’re leading and following, and it’s just two bodies moving as one.”
I think what Alex means here is that you aren't consciously doing anything. It's "just happening". I've never seen the man NOT dance to the music. So I doubt he means , literally, that "it doesn't exist".
We practice and practice skills, doing things quite deliberately so we get them "right".
Then at some point, although our brains are still running things, we no longer have to think about it. When both parnters are there, you have that "transendence".

Steve, you are absolutely correct. Based on context, Alex did not literally mean that the music does not exist or that the dancers do not follow the music in a "trance dance." You captured the spirit of what he was saying pretty well. Here Alex was really highlighting the different types of connection and the importance of being on the same page as your partner. If one partner is focused on being super musical while the other is focusing on reaching this state of transcendence, they will not form a greater connection because their focus is not on the same thing. Alex did mention as well the importance of adjusting to your partner to attain connection on whatever level. So good observation.

I also note that he did not mention the other people who are dancing at the same time (unless he was speaking of performing, which he does regularly). Alex is excellent as a "navigator". Where for some time I would be very self conscious when dancing on the same floor as my teachers, I learned that they are the best people to be near; because you don't have to worry about them doing stupid things like backing into you, leading high boleos, etc.
(This does NOT apply to many, many teachers; only the ones who are confident enough to not have to show off to prove themselves. Young bull says to old bull...)

I think it's very important to educate people that AT is a group activity, as well as being a partner dance, and think it's unfortunate that Alex missed an opportunity to talk about this. (A few years ago, when I was still going to milongas here, I talked to many of the instructors/hosts about this real need in the AT community. I only go to the one practica now, but I know at least there for a while some progress was made.)

Actually, Steve, the missed opportunity was mine. The weekend of Tangofest when I interviewed Alex was very busy for both of us. We had exactly one hour to talk before he had to start rehearsing with the orchestra for their performance that evening. With limited time, I chose which questions to ask and which topics to focus on. So of course the focus on the article was biased toward my own interests and curiosities. I agree with you that AT as a group activity is very important and that many dancers do not realize this or think about it. I would love to delve into this further. But with limited time, I did choose to focus more on the dancer as an individual and as a member of the partnership versus part of a group of dancers.

"As dancers become more musical, they are able to dance to the melody more and can pick and choose from a variety of instruments in a song. This only happens when the dancer becomes intimately familiar with the recorded music and learns to dance to the music, not on top of it. However, says Alex, the increasing popularity of live music by orchestras such as Conjunto Berretín may change how musicality is defined in Argentine tango in the coming decades."

I'm sure Alex is as aware of this as I am, but it's not in the article.
In learning about the swing bands, including the Western Swing bands that were so popular in LA when WCS was being born, and also people like Carl Perkins as he was developing what would become known a rockabilly...
Note that these musicians played for dancers, and their music developed to a large extent as a symbiotic relationships between the players and the dancers.
Without checking a source like "Tango - the Art History of Love", I can at least say that AT, like "swing" music was born in a similar environment to AT: no amplification, no recorded music. So it must have been influenced by the dancers.

"... a symbiotic relationship between the players and the dancers." I like that, Steve. Very well said. And actually, Alex did mention this during the course of our interview. The exchange between dancers and musicians that happens with live music is indeed very interesting, and Alex did make note of this. Again, as a writer you have to pick and choose. When I transcribed my interview with Alex, I had over ten pages of material to work with. I could very well have written a novel based on his thoughts. But to keep the article from rambling off onto too many points, I chose to focus on specific topics.

But I am glad you bring up these points, because they are excellent ones. These could be a whole other interview and article for sure. There is just so much in AT to become engrossed in. I find it fascinating. I am hoping that my articles won't just be something to read and find interesting but something to stimulate reflection and discussion.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Steve Pastor]

When I first started learning this dance, and people told me about Alex, he had a set of "journal" entries he had made while traveling to teach. I found them to be quite interesting. Somewhere along the way, they seem to have been dropped from his site. Too bad, really.

I'm sure you know that my comments weren't meant to be criticisms, rather, as you point out, something that could be discussed further. I consider myself lucky to be in a town that has people like Alex.

 

[Steve Pastor]

I think I saw on your web site that you've studied African dance. There for two or three years, I took jazz dance lessons, because I wanted to learn more about using other parts of my body to "dance".
One thing that I am now wrestling with is the idea of polyrhythms, which, from all I read, are very common in both African music and dance.

"Musical training" in African societies begins at birth with cradle songs, and continues on the backs of relatives both at work and at festivals and other social events. The sounding of three beats against two is experienced in everyday life and helps develop "a two-dimensional attitude to rhythm". Throughout western and central Africa child's play includes games that develop a feeling for multiple rhythms..[6]
African dance utilizes the concepts of polyrhythm and total body articulation.[7]
Shoulders, chest, pelvis, arms, legs etc., may move with different rhythms in the music. They may also add rhythmic components independent of those in the music. Very complex movements are then possible even though the body does not move through space.[1]
Different parts of the body are emphasized by different groups. The upper body is emphasized by the Anto-Ewe and Lobi of Ghana. Subtle accent of the hips is characteristic of the Kalabari of Nigeria. In Agbor strong contraction-relase movements of the pelvis and upper torso characterize both male and female dancing. The Akan of Ghana use the feet and hands in specific ways..[8]
Dancers are able to switch back and forth between rhythms without missing movements.[9] It is extremely important that the dancers maintain clarity.[10]
Dancers in Nigeria commonly combine at least two rhythms in their movement, and the blending of three rhythms can be seen among highly skilled dancers. Articulation of as many as four distinct rhythms is rare.[11]

(Note - If you don't see the connection between African dance and AT, take a look at "Tango: the Art Histroy of Love".)

I've looked at "Step It Down" to get a couple of exercises that use polyrhythms, but they use clapping.
Any ideas, resources, that could help me work on, say, swaying my shoulders, torso, to one ryhthm while stepping another rhythm? Or music to practice it to?
(I plan to use this idea in my line dancing, too.)

Did Alex elaborate on any of this as captured in your notes? I don't remember him, or any of the other Portland based instructors addressing this in the several to many musicality classses I have taken over the years.

 

[Joy In Motion]

I'm sure you know that my comments weren't meant to be criticisms, rather, as you point out, something that could be discussed further. I consider myself lucky to be in a town that has people like Alex.

Absolutely, Steve! I am always asking for feedback (positive, negative, or neutral), but oftentimes I think people get shy. The reason I write about these topics is because I am very passionate about them, and I love finding people who are interested in engaging in discussions. It definitely helps me to grow as a writer, a dancer, and even as a person to get that feedback and be challenged to think about things in a different way. I hope this kind of open discussion will encourage others to join in and share their thoughts as well.

 

[newbie]

Terrible setup of the article.

...but hearing and understanding the music are only the first part. “The second part to that,” says Alex, “is execution and filtering, because it’s impossible to dance everything in the music.” Beginners, he notes,....

What is what? What is said by Mr Krebs, what is quoted from Mr Krebs' words, what are the interviewer own's thoughts, what is reportedly said by Mr Krebs?
This is a mess, not an interview. An interview is a sequence of alternating questions and answers.

 

[Joy In Motion]

Terrible setup of the article.



What is what? What is said by Mr Krebs, what is quoted from Mr Krebs' words, what are the interviewer own's thoughts, what is reportedly said by Mr Krebs?
This is a mess, not an interview. An interview is a sequence of alternating questions and answers.

Newbie, I apologize if putting the word "interview" in the title was misleading. Perhaps it would have been better to say that this article is based on an interview with Alex Krebs. As a writer and voracious reader, I can tell you that interviews are often not transcribed in question and answer format. I'm not sure if you have ever had to interview someone, but if you do you will understand why. (If you care to know these reasons, let me know and I would be happy to explain.)

So to clarify, everything in quotation marks are Alex's words verbatim. The remainder are his thoughts as paraphrased and organized by me. To a certain extent the reader has to trust that the author is genuinely trying to accurately represent the interviewee's thoughts. If you don't, then disregard the entire article. But if it helps, Alex emailed me after reading the article and told me he thought I captured his thoughts from the interview very well and was happy with how the article turned out. And really, his opinion is the one I care about most. I can tell you that I take pride in my work and I would not feel confident about my article if I thought I was misrepresenting his thoughts or not doing justice to his unique perspective on the dance.

I hope this clarifies things for you. But even if not, I do appreciate your feedback. I know I can't please everyone. I am happy with my work.

 

[Joy In Motion]

I think I saw on your web site that you've studied African dance. There for two or three years, I took jazz dance lessons, because I wanted to learn more about using other parts of my body to "dance".
One thing that I am now wrestling with is the idea of polyrhythms, which, from all I read, are very common in both African music and dance.

"Musical training" in African societies begins at birth with cradle songs, and continues on the backs of relatives both at work and at festivals and other social events. The sounding of three beats against two is experienced in everyday life and helps develop "a two-dimensional attitude to rhythm". Throughout western and central Africa child's play includes games that develop a feeling for multiple rhythms..[6]
African dance utilizes the concepts of polyrhythm and total body articulation.[7]
Shoulders, chest, pelvis, arms, legs etc., may move with different rhythms in the music. They may also add rhythmic components independent of those in the music. Very complex movements are then possible even though the body does not move through space.[1]
Different parts of the body are emphasized by different groups. The upper body is emphasized by the Anto-Ewe and Lobi of Ghana. Subtle accent of the hips is characteristic of the Kalabari of Nigeria. In Agbor strong contraction-relase movements of the pelvis and upper torso characterize both male and female dancing. The Akan of Ghana use the feet and hands in specific ways..[8]
Dancers are able to switch back and forth between rhythms without missing movements.[9] It is extremely important that the dancers maintain clarity.[10]
Dancers in Nigeria commonly combine at least two rhythms in their movement, and the blending of three rhythms can be seen among highly skilled dancers. Articulation of as many as four distinct rhythms is rare.[11]

(Note - If you don't see the connection between African dance and AT, take a look at "Tango: the Art Histroy of Love".)

I've looked at "Step It Down" to get a couple of exercises that use polyrhythms, but they use clapping.
Any ideas, resources, that could help me work on, say, swaying my shoulders, torso, to one ryhthm while stepping another rhythm? Or music to practice it to?
(I plan to use this idea in my line dancing, too.)

Did Alex elaborate on any of this as captured in your notes? I don't remember him, or any of the other Portland based instructors addressing this in the several to many musicality classses I have taken over the years.

Alex did not reference the African influence in Argentine tango, but as I mentioned before we did have limited time and I did not focus on that aspect in the questions I asked. I do think it is a fascinating topic to explore further.

In my own personal studies, I have found that West African and Afro-Cuban dance provide great training for isolating the upper and lower body and dancing to multiple rhythms in a single piece of music. I will admit that my studies have been mostly through dancing (classes, lessons, etc.), so I have not searched much online in this area and couldn't really recommend much in the way of videos. I would recommend searching for an instructor in your area with experience in African, Afro-Cuban, or even Brazilian dance. Or, like me, you might consider taking your next vacation in Cuba. There are two programs there that I recommend, both two weeks long, that focus on Afro-Cuban movement.

I would love to do more research in this area, so I will be sure to update you if I come across any videos. Let me know if you find any resources you'd like to share.

 

[Joy In Motion]

Now, Alex's decription of "cadencia" is different than what I understand. Some sort of misunderstanding???

Steve, what is your understanding of cadencia? I would love to discuss this further.

 

[Steve Pastor]

I always thought the word was the Spanish equivalent of our word "cadence". I haven't looked up the latin form of the word, but would be surprised if the root was not similar.

In an effort to understand things better, I assembled my own "dictionary" from various sources...
Cadencia - A deep check and replace, usually led by the man as he steps forward left. Useful for avoiding collisions and making direction changes in small spaces. May also refer to a subtle shifting of weight from foot to foot in place and in time with the music done by the man before beginning a dance to give the lady the rhythm he intends to dance and to ensure that she will begin with him on the correct foot. See Balanceo.

Compared to Alex's,
“Part of being musical is not just putting the music into your feet and your legs. There’s what the Argentines call cadencia, which is the twisting and lilting. It’s the way the whole body reacts to the music. The whole body is sort of a musical palette rather than just the feet or legs, which tend to be the major emphasis in tango."

???

I might look at "Tango the Art History of Love” to see how that author uses the word, but I have to rake leaves, run, go out dancing tonight....

I have been looking for African dance classes, but have been going out of town about every month, so it's hard to commit...
And we could also have a discussion about how African dance is taught, and who's tradition to study, etc....

 

[Angel HI]

This is a mess, not an interview. An interview is a sequence of alternating questions and answers.

No Newb, that is a Q&A. Joy's interview was great, and we are happy that she shared a part of it w/ us. I might suggest that she compile the other 10 pages into a series for her newsletter.

Steve, what is your understanding of cadencia? I would love to discuss this further.

Forgive me for butting in, but I thought since we are friends, you wouldn't mind. Cadencia in AT, to me, has always signified a float (most nontechnicians say flow) or continuous/harmonious synergy and/or rhythm. This is noted sometimes in balanceos, in cadenas, or even vaivenes (say while leading some media lunas, etc). I get the feeling from the article that Alex is saying pretty well the same thing, non?