As someone has already noted, however, in the "more intense" form(s) of "close embrace", the man's left hand and the woman's right hand actually don't have an active role in the dance (unless something isn't going exactly right).
Contradiction and Autodidacticism
- Thread starter bordertangoman
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bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
latissimus dorsi; but since most muscle groups work in pairs, at least there will be some action in the abdominals and probably others as well; there will be other muscles in the leg that creates rotation in the leg; which can start a pivot.
Ampster
Active Member
Ampster
Active Member
In my case, I've figured it out that not one technique is absolutely correct, and no one's technique alone will absolutely suffice either.
Rather, everything they have taught me is from what they experienced that works for them. So, in my case, I have an expanded repertoire of tools & techniques to use depending on my partners' skills.
All this I fit into what the defined tango rules and codes are. That way, it will always be AT. Also, it is always about "HER," and making the tanda memorable for her.
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Varies depending on the level of the student, I'd say.
Technically, you lead with your "core" - but most students have no idea what this means, so saying "lead with your chest" is a good start point for most people, as most of us know where our chests are.
Not sure about this anymore - my current pet theory is that there are at least 2 different methods of power generation going around:
1) Something similar to ballet where we stabilize the core and move from the hip
2) Something simiar to tai chi where the core is relaxed and we move from the waist using the the muscles of the core to power the movement
People who dance 1) dissociate relatively low on their spine, just over the hip, and lead with their core (and they also talk about leading from the core), whereas people who dance 2) dissociate high, just at the lower edge of the ribcage, and actually really lead with their chest (they also tend to talk about the "upper upper body" and the "lower upper body")
Disclaimer: This is something i have been thinking about only lately, and its pretty half baked, so this might be completely made up.
Gssh
This really depends on the type of disgreement.
If somebody were to look at me and, in all seriousness, say to pitch contrary body movement out the window, I would finish the hour... but that would be my last class with them. How could they possibly be serious about that? (If you can remember their argument, can you please post it? I'd seriously like to know this.)
If somebody were to tell me to press the chest flat to my partner instead of in an open V shape, I would accept this as a difference in style, and now I have to make a decision on whether I want to/need to learn this.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
To me it all comes down to perspective, and trying to understand where someone is coming from when they make a statement, and figuring out what they're trying to address.
Perhaps one teacher tells you to "stand up straight" on your own axis, while another tells you to be "more forward." Do these concepts contradict each other? It could seem that way. But in what context did each make the statement? Was one teaching an on-axis style, while the other was teaching a shared axis? Was one said at the beginning of your tango journey (when, perhaps, you were falling back or pulling your center away too soon) and the other a bit later on when an existing technique was being refined and tweaked? For that matter, were they even addressing the same issue--"stand up straight" could refer to not collapsing your center and, instead, having good posture, while "more forward" seems to be more a description of where over your feet to be centered. For me, context is the first issue to consider.
Along with that, I try to determine what is purely a stylistic difference versus what is a technique difference designed for different/better results. I do this by asking questions. "You're telling me to walk with toe leads. Previously I've had heel leads stressed. What is the difference you see? What is the benefit to walking one way versus another?" Whenever I've done this, I've always found teachers very willing to either describe what they see as the benefits of their particular method, or to discuss that it's a personal preference.
If there are what seem to be legit reasons for the technique differences, I think about how it fits in with other things I've been told that seem to be contradictory. Perhaps one thing was said and meant with a narrow application, perhaps it was an exception, whereas the other statement was more general. I ask myself if I'm getting two sides of the same coin. I ponder if it is merely two different teachers' ways of expressing themselves, because all teachers are going to describe things a bit differently. If it's a statement that I've heard from someone else, particularly in the context of their own lesson (such as here on D-F), I try to understand how that relates to me...if at all. (This sort of goes back to my first point--the teacher could be correcting a problem specific to another student.)
And, also, I think about the different statements and try them each out, and figure out what works for me. Perhaps one technique is easier than another because of something with my own dancing.
*shrug*
Perhaps one teacher tells you to "stand up straight" on your own axis, while another tells you to be "more forward." Do these concepts contradict each other? It could seem that way. But in what context did each make the statement? Was one teaching an on-axis style, while the other was teaching a shared axis? Was one said at the beginning of your tango journey (when, perhaps, you were falling back or pulling your center away too soon) and the other a bit later on when an existing technique was being refined and tweaked? For that matter, were they even addressing the same issue--"stand up straight" could refer to not collapsing your center and, instead, having good posture, while "more forward" seems to be more a description of where over your feet to be centered. For me, context is the first issue to consider.
Along with that, I try to determine what is purely a stylistic difference versus what is a technique difference designed for different/better results. I do this by asking questions. "You're telling me to walk with toe leads. Previously I've had heel leads stressed. What is the difference you see? What is the benefit to walking one way versus another?" Whenever I've done this, I've always found teachers very willing to either describe what they see as the benefits of their particular method, or to discuss that it's a personal preference.
If there are what seem to be legit reasons for the technique differences, I think about how it fits in with other things I've been told that seem to be contradictory. Perhaps one thing was said and meant with a narrow application, perhaps it was an exception, whereas the other statement was more general. I ask myself if I'm getting two sides of the same coin. I ponder if it is merely two different teachers' ways of expressing themselves, because all teachers are going to describe things a bit differently. If it's a statement that I've heard from someone else, particularly in the context of their own lesson (such as here on D-F), I try to understand how that relates to me...if at all. (This sort of goes back to my first point--the teacher could be correcting a problem specific to another student.)
And, also, I think about the different statements and try them each out, and figure out what works for me. Perhaps one technique is easier than another because of something with my own dancing.
*shrug*
I would label all of these things "style".
You can stand in place and create rotation by moving your upper, then lower body.
To create rotation with your leg(s) or arms, you move them away from your center and in an arc. Think lapiz.
You could also "turn out" (or in) when you step making the next step "land" at a point that is not in a stright line, creating a pivot point whcih you will rotate around.
There may be more expamples. Might justify a trip to "Art and the Physics of Dance"
Oooh I say missus.
The next question is how as a leader do you ensure that happens.
But to be honest DB the reason I mentioned the left arm is it the most benign part of our bodies in AT terms and you would think there is a uniform method of holding it. However I can introduce you to at least 10 different teachers (all highly regarded) and each one will give you a different approach on holding the left arm. Having said that the one constant they all stress is that it should be relaxed.
I can't imagine how many contradictory methods are taught in regard to the parts of the body that are important. However it would be interesting to find out what are the constants.
referring to the left arm
Ah, well. Perhaps someone would like to comment on quick turns to the man's left and why nothing seems to happen (except that the woman falls behind the beat) if the left arm is TOO relaxed.
I remember Alex Krebs teaching about how the woman is supposed to follow the decreasing pressure of that left hand moving away when the man wants her to step forward and to the man's left. Guess what? When there isn't ENOUGH "tension" it's like when a woman wants to dance close embrace with me, doesn't share weight through the torso then begins to try various means of grasping my body to "find the lead", which is of course in my torso, anything but share more weight in the torso.
Then there are "energetic turns" in general, but I fear I've already written too much.
This I think I've learned Autodidactially.
What about when you want to lead a linear boleo?
Ampster
Active Member
Why would you want to lead a linear boleo on a social dance floor?
But, to answer your question. Steve was talking about close embrace, you don't do linear boleos in close. It has to be in open embrace, and you don't have any choice but to use your hands. Preferably with LOTS of space so you don't impale the person behind your partner. That would be rude.
*Sorry* for the seemingly ranting reply... I, and some of my partners have been stabbed and impaled by idiots who have done linear boleos in a packed milonga. Its very painful.
:cheers: