Contradictions in teaching “caminar”

[ArbeeNYC]

Please don't. Go to the milongas where the competition style dancers hang out, that's where you'll find the people who actually don't care about floorcraft or what music is playing.

THose are the people I'm talking about! They need their own milonga. The peacocks and big egos.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I heard from several old (70s and older) and current generation (less than 50) visiting Argentine instructors about how it is common to dance a certain orchestra with a particular set of partners. Most of the visiting instructors are men (and when accompanied by a lady, she is usually younger). General impression I gathered is that they have their go to partners dictated by the orchestra. They are also pick about tandas they will dance to at milongas and sit out a lot of tandas during the night.

It's an interesting question about music determining style or vice versa. But with respect to your comment, it's not that uncommon today though. I pretty much do the same. I sit out tandas I don't like and dance those I like. Certain tandas with certain people generally. I'm not quite as exclusive about it as the older generation, but I do try to be selective.

 

[JohnEm]

Escenario or neo dancers leave space around them or dance on the spot.

Not in my experience, they commandeer the floor taking
an unfair amount of space. Their antics makes other more
considerate dancers avoid "their area" for fear of being kicked etc.

In one busy little hotel bar milonga in France, when I crowded
a nuevo-style guy he told me bluntly to "stay away". One of their
regulars made it clear that when this particular individual
(and his little entourage of ladies) arrived that was the time
for him to leave. And he did.

And when they dance on the spot the ronda is stopped
which was why I was crowding this guy in the first place
since I was being pressured from behind to move on.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Not in my experience, they commandeer the floor taking
an unfair amount of space. Their antics makes other more
considerate dancers avoid "their area" for fear of being kicked etc.

My experience as well. They are generally the worst at floor craft and generally ignore the other dancers. Big egos who need big space and have never learned to dance "small" as they say. One or two can ruin the entire line of dance.

 

[latinjazz]

Would any caritative soul explain to me what a breathing floor is?

My experience as well. They are generally the worst at floor craft and generally ignore the other dancers. Big egos who need big space and have never learned to dance "small" as they say. One or two can ruin the entire line of dance.

I know this from Salsa... I call them small egos, not big ones- or they wouldn’t need to show off disturbing other dancers...

 

[Brummbaer]

Would any caritative soul explain to me what a breathing floor is?

My understanding is when everyone on the floor just "gets" the music, the rhythm, the feeling, and moves in some harmony, but not necessarily synchronicity, with everyone else. If you look at the milonga ronda from above then it's when everything in the ronda just works together - it breathes. Sort of like looking at an ants' nest. Most of the time it looks pretty random, then they find some food and synchronise to work together to get it. As musicians jamming - being "in the groove"(?) From a military perspective, maybe when multiple diverse weapon systems detect something, lock on and track. A sports crowd all cheering together, but not some synchronised sport or gym exercises, more of a ripple drawing everything together and breathing.

A "non-breathing" floor would be the ronda held up by that couple stuck there doing those nuevo moves, oblivious to everyone queuing behind them and a large gap in front; the self-proclaimed maestros hogging the centre doing their own thing because they need some space; that couple still engaged in small talk after the previous number in the tanda; that guy stopping to teach someone what they should do when he thinks he's led a sandwich but doesn't understand how to draw the follower over; that follower too busy with her own decorations to follow her leader.

 

[Rabbit]

THose are the people I'm talking about! They need their own milonga. The peacocks and big egos.

The ones around here are mostly traditional-music-only types dancing mundial style tango. In addition to ignoring everyone else on the dance floor, they dance everything way too large/fast/staccato/aggressive no matter what the music is, which does my head in.

 

[Bailango]

To be fair to the pretty young ones, most of them have dance experience as well, so it's sort of an illusion that they learn more quickly because they get more dances. A follower with a few months of tango experience and a bunch of transferrable fundamental skills is almost always a better dancer than one with a few years of tango experience who hasn't developed these skills.

That I agree. Only in some parts that is true. Like Eastern Europe for followers who likely have a prior dance experience.

Except in Japan, Korea and Eastern/Central Europe, the followers generally refrain from putting in hard work. Once they start getting regular dances, they stop taking classes. Only a dedicated few in the west keep improving. Among them more tend to be in pre-40s.

If I were to get a buck for every follower who lacks proper orcho, I will be rich. In classes at the drills I often see long time dancers not able to hold their balance. This for simple walking or a variation of it with no connection to partners. So they can't blame partners for throwing their balance off. Men at similar experience level tend to fare better. After progressing quickly in first six months to a year, many women tend to stagnate.

 

[Bailango]

It's an interesting question about music determining style or vice versa. But with respect to your comment, it's not that uncommon today though. I pretty much do the same. I sit out tandas I don't like and dance those I like.

I do the same. I am in a small minority at that. For me music has to be inspiring enough to get up and dance.

 

[latinjazz]

My understanding is when everyone on the floor just "gets" the music, the rhythm, the feeling, and moves in some harmony, but not necessarily synchronicity, with everyone else. If you look at the milonga ronda from above then it's when everything in the ronda just works together - it breathes. Sort of like looking at an ants' nest. Most of the time it looks pretty random, then they find some food and synchronise to work together to get it. As musicians jamming - being "in the groove"(?) From a military perspective, maybe when multiple diverse weapon systems detect something, lock on and track. A sports crowd all cheering together, but not some synchronised sport or gym exercises, more of a ripple drawing everything together and breathing.

A "non-breathing" floor would be the ronda held up by that couple stuck there doing those nuevo moves, oblivious to everyone queuing behind them and a large gap in front; the self-proclaimed maestros hogging the centre doing their own thing because they need some space; that couple still engaged in small talk after the previous number in the tanda; that guy stopping to teach someone what they should do when he thinks he's led a sandwich but doesn't understand how to draw the follower over; that follower too busy with her own decorations to follow her leader.

Perfectly explained, thank you!

 

[LadyLeader]

To be fair to the pretty young ones, most of them have dance experience as well, so it's sort of an illusion that they learn more quickly because they get more dances. A follower with a few months of tango experience and a bunch of transferrable fundamental skills is almost always a better dancer than one with a few years of tango experience who hasn't developed these skills. (It's a bit different for leaders because they are more limited by tango-specific skills such as how to lead, manage the floorcraft and understand the unfamiliar old music)

I was 40+ when I got my driving license. At some occation the teacher told me that my education was/would be many weeks longer then the education was for the 20 years old students. There was a clear difference between the weeks and training hours for those two groups. The fast reactions and learning/adapting are true differences which drive even me to the younger dancers at an unknown milonga.

But there are other things. When a voluminous follower has a good technique there is nothing that can beat her magnificent ochos. Nothing. IMO there is also a stronger presence with a 50+ follower compared to the youngest on the pista.

One of my oldest (age) followers generates nearly always positive verbal feedback when we dance together. She was the most wobbliest beginner I ever met but she has worked on her technic continuously and changed a lot. But not quite. There still is a certain wobbliness left. I was impatient about it until I realized that it probably made her to a better follower and us a seamless entity. We were like a soft flag in the wind compared to a stiff one!

 

[opendoor]

..heard from several old (70s and older) and current generation (less than 50) visiting Argentine instructors about how it is common to dance a certain orchestra with a particular set of partners..

I usually do it the same. That of course assumes to know the preferences of the actual DJ, too. Not only the orchestras make a difference. Its more about the recording session. d'Arienzo with Salamanca is a totally different than d'Arienzo with Polito. Every music requires an appropriate style, one requires apilado hold, the other one salón hold. One follower is good in apilado, the other is good in salón. Admitted, I only dance vals with three followers of my community. When I attend a milonga, I first look around to decide if I should rather turn on my heels and leave, or to stay. I choose followers after the music. When I was young I danced with a wide range of unknown dancers. Now I would prefer only to sit at the bar, talk, or leave rather than dancing into the blue.

 

[opendoor]

...My experience is different. The character of the milongas has changed towards a more beginner friendly environment
...in the last decades..

At milongas billed as high levels.. beginners find it very intimidating. The vibe is not welcoming towards beginners. Part of that is unique to tango social dancing..

You only have experienced the beginner friendly variant as the normal one. I do not. This is the reason I wrote of the encuentros as a
withdrawing movement.

 

[opendoor]

...Escenario or neo dancers leave space around them or dance on the spot..

Not in my experience, they commandeer the floor..

Agreed, that is not ok.

 

[JournalInTime]

A follower with a few months of tango experience and a bunch of transferrable fundamental skills is almost always a better dancer than one with a few years of tango experience who hasn't developed these skills.

Agreed.

I'm not one to defend or promote choosing partners on the basis of age, but sadly, many of the longer-term followers in the local community got into tango because they were bored, attended one or two four-month group sessions, and then danced for 10, 20, or more years, learning all the bad habits of the local leaders but never going back to class. When I worked at the studio, it was hell getting these people to sign up for classes in follower technique. Yet they were the first to grouse in person and online about how the men were rude for not inviting them. I tried to be the good guy who invited them, but after one especially brutal kick in the shins, I gave up. My teacher (who had his buttocks punctured by a heel years before) warned me, but I had to learn for myself.

By contrast, many of the younger, fitter followers are into Essentrics, Pilates, yoga, dance-based exercise (like Zumba), and hybrids (like PiYo). Being younger means they're of the generation that sees such things as "just what you do with your spare time." Being into those things makes them fitter. It also gives them movement discipline. And it provides exposure to dance, as almost all fitness studios also offer courses in some variety of dance, around here usually several of baladi (belly dancing), flamenco, kizomba, pole dancing, salsa, and samba de gafieira. The desire to stay fit, control the body, and take tons and tons of lessons results in better dancers.

My current partner in dance and life comes from a ballet-jazz background and is into Pilates. My ex had a background in Highland dance, baladi, and Latin dance, and was into PiYo and Zumba. I can't say I find it fun to dance with a "traditional" follower who never took courses in anything and who sees tango as something to be learned on the floor, even if she has decades of dancing in the milonga. To quote one of my teachers, "When somebody tells you they've been dancing for X years, it means nothing. Since they brought it up, ask how many of those years included courses, and for how many hours a week." (I can say six years, peaking at 20 hours/week, and usually volunteer that if challenged.)

The ones around here are mostly traditional-music-only types dancing mundial style tango. In addition to ignoring everyone else on the dance floor, they dance everything way too large/fast/staccato/aggressive no matter what the music is, which does my head in.

Yeah, we get that here. The thing that kills the vibe the most is not huge escenario steps or nuevo movements, but these "traditional" style dancers who take monster steps. You can do more damage with a huge, fast, forward walk than with any number of boleos and off-axis movements, however large. That kind of large, fast walking runs people over and makes a mess of the pista.