Contradictions in teaching “caminar”

[Naddrin Kentlar]

Example: The week after we learned ochos cortados we did only Milonga walking techniques, never coming back to ochos cortados. I that week, in technique courses (same school), we were practicing basic Tango walking. To me a mixture of 3 complexe things just leading to a chaos in my head.

I've been there and unfortunately it took me about 6 months to have the courage to break free and regardless of what's thought in class, I manage to find something to actually improve on myself, posture/balance/dissociation. I find it quite damaging to try to put a sacada to music while I'm not having good balance and I'm not aware of the couple geometry. As some other users pointed out, you are forced to implement shortcuts that will eventually turn into bad habits that you'll have to fix later.

I've brought this to teachers attention and he agrees. But the claim is that if people don't feel like they can improve in a timeframe similar to other dances they will just quit. And the idea is to keep them in class until they start to feel the idea of tango and there is a lot of work to be had. Unfortunately as I have witnessed myself for the last 13 months when people start to understand how much work there is to be done, they quit. People want to be entertained. That's why probably there's a lot of introverts in tango as well. Introverts are not scared about being alone either their body and feelings.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

A lot of them, for my taste way too many.

Ooohh, way too much in too short a time. In one of my basic courses, the only things we studied were back ochos and maybe walking to the cross. That's it. One intro cross, we simply did walking, embrace, and walking to the cross. Stuff like the sandwich came much, much later. No fundamentals class teaches ganchos . Forget about ganchos for now. Cross system you need to learn, yes, but gradually or maybe in conjunction with learning back ochos. Big problem is instructors teaching something then not giving you time to actually learn how to do it. They should come back to it each week, then go back to the material taught in the first class. And you have to practice it all on your own, too. That's the key.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

For beginners, I think the focus should be on basic walking, ochos and giros and the crusada. All the rest can be left for later. I don’t regard giros as particularly simple in fact, but they are so useful that they have to be teached early.

That's good advice. Giros aren't simple because learning to lead a follower's pivot correctly isn't simple. It's an art.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

People want to be entertained. That's why probably there's a lot of introverts in tango as well. Introverts are not scared about being alone either their body and feelings.

Very interesting. There are a lot of introverts in tango but I never thought of this as a reason for it.

 

[latinjazz]

That's good advice. Giros aren't simple because learning to lead a follower's pivot correctly isn't simple. It's an art.

And as a leader, not nearly falling on my nose during a giro is a task I haven't accomplished yet.
It's really really difficult for me - so far the most difficult.

 

[JournalInTime]

A lot of them, for my taste way too many.

basic walking and stops, amagues, corridas, the cruzado system, ochos, ochos cortados, ganchos, sandwichito, giros, step variations and basic walking of Milongas, and loads of other things I even forgot the name. I can do all of this somehow, but I would prefer to have learned just 3 of them but right.

On a real, crowded dance floor, the most important steps are those for circular movement in place. Those include cross-system walking (to walk a tight circle in place), balanceos (to rock a tight circle in place), ochos cortados (around you, not the back-front version some teachers love), and giros (walking turns initially, leaving enrosques, lapices, sacadas, etc. for later). Learning to "curve" ochos by leading them around you is also good to start early; people leading ochos down the line of dance is a huge source of collisions. You can "curve" a cross, too, but that's just an ocho cortado (though some teachers claim the spiral cross isn't an ocho cortado).

As important as parallel system walking and ochos are, you aren't going to be able to do much of that at the typical milonga. It's too crowded. Corridas are extremely troublesome in that context. A lot of people will tell you otherwise, but just try to dance that way in real life. Around here, you'll get maybe a square metre on a good night, and that little square will move 25-50% of the way around the floor during each tango; I've danced an entire tanda in an 80 cm × 80 cm box.

Paradas are controversial. Many dancers think they're a bad idea because they halt the line of dance. But if the line of dance is perpetually halted, you'll want to explore paradas. The trick is not to make them huge. You can stop your partner anywhere and signal a pasada with either of your feet to either side or the back of either of your partner's feet. (Just don't fall into the trap of thinking a parada is about the foot, because it isn't – it's a led pause and the foot merely establishes the geometry for what comes next.) A sandwichito is just a game within a parada, a way to change the signaling foot to exit with a different geometry.

I can't imagine ganchos being part of any basic vocabulary.

Amagues are a pain for most beginner dancers. The difference between a feint and a real step is subtle, and not black and white, but an entire spectrum. That's it's own course.

If you pick three, I'd say it's best to learn to get into and out of cross system smoothly; to work on non-jerky balanceos of all kinds; and to polish one basic turn in either direction. With that stuff under control, you can do something when you're inevitably stopped in place, and you'll have the tools to correct for errors (stepping into/out of cross and little cadencias to realign).

 

[latinjazz]

On a real, crowded dance floor, the most important steps are those for circular movement in place. Those include cross-system walking (to walk a tight circle in place), balanceos (to rock a tight circle in place), ochos cortados (around you, not the back-front version some teachers love), and giros (walking turns initially, leaving enrosques, lapices, sacadas, etc. for later). Learning to "curve" ochos by leading them around you is also good to start early; people leading ochos down the line of dance is a huge source of collisions. You can "curve" a cross, too, but that's just an ocho cortado (though some teachers claim the spiral cross isn't an ocho cortado).

As important as parallel system walking and ochos are, you aren't going to be able to do much of that at the typical milonga. It's too crowded. Corridas are extremely troublesome in that context. A lot of people will tell you otherwise, but just try to dance that way in real life. Around here, you'll get maybe a square metre on a good night, and that little square will move 25-50% of the way around the floor during each tango; I've danced an entire tanda in an 80 cm × 80 cm box.

Paradas are controversial. Many dancers think they're a bad idea because they halt the line of dance. But if the line of dance is perpetually halted, you'll want to explore paradas. The trick is not to make them huge. You can stop your partner anywhere and signal a pasada with either of your feet to either side or the back of either of your partner's feet. (Just don't fall into the trap of thinking a parada is about the foot, because it isn't – it's a led pause and the foot merely establishes the geometry for what comes next.) A sandwichito is just a game within a parada, a way to change the signaling foot to exit with a different geometry.

I can't imagine ganchos being part of any basic vocabulary.

Amagues are a pain for most beginner dancers. The difference between a feint and a real step is subtle, and not black and white, but an entire spectrum. That's it's own course.

If you pick three, I'd say it's best to learn to get into and out of cross system smoothly; to work on non-jerky balanceos of all kinds; and to polish one basic turn in either direction. With that stuff under control, you can do something when you're inevitably stopped in place, and you'll have the tools to correct for errors (stepping into/out of cross and little cadencias to realign).

Thanks a lot! I’ll try..

 

[ArbeeNYC]

And as a leader, not nearly falling on my nose during a giro is a task I haven't accomplished yet.
It's really really difficult for me - so far the most difficult.

It's not that hard once you learn to rotate and pivot. There are different ways to lead it, too. If you're falling, you may be following your follower and being pulled off balance or you are not pivoting your body enough. Those are a couple of possibilities. But keep practicing it slowly with a partner.

 

[LadyLeader]

My balance is not good so I am working on it continuously. Now I do daily training with my legs tight crossed: Left in front - left/right turn on the right foot and then the same turns on the left foot. Repeating with the right in front. One or two tries in every direction. Never more on one occasion.

In this way I learn how my body should stand when turning on the back foot and how the axis changes when the turn is on the front foot. I am more aware of where on my feet the balance is or where I am wobbling. I think my brain has activated some more information lines to the feet.

After 4-8 weeks I change the training to different turning patterns. It was quite a tough exercise at the beginning because my body tried to correct as if the feet were parallel. Now even the parallel turns are easier.

 

[Gssh]

A lot of them, for my taste way too many.
basic walking and stops, amagues, corridas, the cruzado system, ochos, ochos cortados, ganchos, sandwichito, giros, step variations and basic walking of Milongas, and loads of other things I even forgot the name. I can do all of this somehow, but I would prefer to have learned just 3 of them but right.
Example: The week after we learned ochos cortados we did only Milonga walking techniques, never coming back to ochos cortados. I that week, in technique courses (same school), we were practicing basic Tango walking. To me a mixture of 3 complexe things just leading to a chaos in my head.

An alternative perspective (very tango nuevo ): The whole tango vocabulary is three things: step, pivot, switching from cross to parallel system and back. Everything else can (admittedly with some contortions) be assembled from these three elements.
Vocabulary is not something to be learned, but it is worked out examples of how these basic elements can be combined. Amagues is walk+stop, just with tricky timing, corridas are walking. ochos are pivot+walk (or, in the way it is usually taught cross-system, pivot, walk). giro is pivot+walk, ocho cortado is giro+amague, gancho is an adornment for walk+stop, and so on, and so on. So i think to some extent they are not there to be learned correctly, but to practice pivot, walk, switching systems in different combinations and variations, and your teacher might feel that presenting different variations helps people being flexible in how they combine pieces. Like in a boxing gym, where one day you work jab-cross-hook, and another cross-hook-cross, then jab-jab-cross and so on - less working combos, more doing drills.

Sometimes i wish navieras analysis of tango would have filtered down to teaching - i wonder if students would have an easier time if e.g. giro, calesita, ocho would be introduced as being the same move (find the followers axis, pivot till they point the desired direction, take them off the axis in one of the 3 possible directions, repeat). Having names for everything does reify things.

Re: What vocabulary: I think a useful progression would be:
1) walk + stop on single axis, same track
2) rockstep ( this includes stopping on the center axis, some idea of rebound, amague)
4) using the invisible weight shift on axis to move between systems (walk and rockstep in all systems, playing with doing this kind of double time move everywhere to see how switching systems works on all three tracks)
5) calesita (find and establish followers axis, and how to get out of this), ocho (chained small calesitas), giro (unfolded ocho). (plus playing with rocksteps and walking and rebounds in those - for practicing precision in positioning i like "long ochos" - a ocho with three steps instead of one between pivots)

I don't really think the cross is a good move in the beginning - it is finicky, there are a few different ways to lead it, and more a practiced piece of choreography. It is a very useful piece of choreography, but if we want to look at tango from a nuevo / first principles perspective it is somewhat of an outlier.

 

[TTanguero]

The whole tango vocabulary is three things: step, pivot, switching from cross to parallel system and back. Everything else can (admittedly with some contortions) be assembled from these three elements.

One of my teachers helped me enormously when he said there are only four things you can do at any given point:

• Pause
• Change weight
• Step
• Pivot

Therefore anything that can be done in tango has to comprise some sequence of these things. For example, a leader-only change of weight can take you from parallel to cross system and back.

Then within each there are infinite variations. The step, for example, can be in any direction, any size, any speed, accelerating, decelerating, collect or continue. A pause can be for a moment, a beat, a phrase ...

i wonder if students would have an easier time if e.g. giro, calesita, ocho would be introduced as being the same move (find the followers axis, pivot till they point the desired direction, take them off the axis in one of the 3 possible directions, repeat).

I'm certain this would be the case for me. Teach me different ways to change weight, step and pivot, then give me examples of how these things can be combined into figures. That would make much more sense to me than the standard teaching method of sequences which then get broken down into their components.

 

[Rabbit]

An alternative perspective (very tango nuevo ): The whole tango vocabulary is three things: step, pivot, switching from cross to parallel system and back. Everything else can (admittedly with some contortions) be assembled from these three elements.

I've heard it before and I think it's too much of an oversimplification to be actually useful in practice - it is a bit like saying there are only 26 letters in the alphabet, and now you know the language. I think the standard movement classification (ocho, giro, sacada etc) works well enough, considering the large number of variations possible in each of these movements.

I don't really think the cross is a good move in the beginning - it is finicky, there are a few different ways to lead it, and more a practiced piece of choreography. It is a very useful piece of choreography, but if we want to look at tango from a nuevo / first principles perspective it is somewhat of an outlier.

I agree with this. It's in fact one of the hardest moves to actually lead/follow properly. By teaching it in beginner classes, we are mostly just training followers to automatically cross after 2 steps in outside or cross system. It should really be taught at intermediate level where leaders have more control of their own movements, followers have better perception, and people can better appreciate the choreographic options.

 

[JournalInTime]

One of my teachers helped me enormously when he said there are only four things you can do at any given point:

• Pause
• Change weight
• Step
• Pivot

I had the same experience!

Group classes were teaching tons of vocabulary, sequences, and patterns. I was finding it not overwhelming, but restrictive. I eventually started private lessons with someone whose philosophy was that there are only weight shifts, steps, pivots, and pauses. That's when I finally started making progress. She then talked about how to "season" these elements with size, duration, placement, direction, speed, acceleration, change of axis, change of level, change of embrace, etc. Breaking things down this way was essential for me.

Of course, I'm a former theoretical particle physicist, so reduction and deconstruction are my go-to tools in life in general.

 

[JournalInTime]

I've heard it before and I think it's too much of an oversimplification to be actually useful in practice

It really, truly depends on the student's style of learning. Some of us need everything taken apart, reduced to first principles and smallest elements, and presented as abstract theory. I saw this all the time among physics students. Of course, there were also those who needed demonstrations, ready-made formulas, empirical explanations, etc. I don't think the "weight shift, step, pivot, pause" theory is like the alphabet; I think it's more like teaching about nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, etc. as grammar, and letting the student research vocabulary and write sentences. Not everybody wants to write in what they regard as clichés.

I agree with this. It's in fact one of the hardest moves to actually lead/follow properly. By teaching it in beginner classes, we are mostly just training followers to automatically cross after 2 steps in outside or cross system. It should really be taught at intermediate level where leaders have more control of their own movements, followers have better perception, and people can better appreciate the choreographic options.

Agreed. I was fortunate to have a teacher in my second session who shelved the "eight-step basic" we had learned and insist that we learn to lead the cross "from nothing" (just by breathing and using a vertical lead).

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I'm certain this would be the case for me. Teach me different ways to change weight, step and pivot, then give me examples of how these things can be combined into figures. That would make much more sense to me than the standard teaching method of sequences which then get broken down into their components.

Mostly agree, although I feel (now) that there is a certain utility in learning a chained sequence of movements -- a short sequence -- like a giro. Simply because there is an art to leading the followers pivot while maintaining the embrace. The problem (in learning) is that it's not just our own steps and pivots we need to worry about but our follower's as well.