Contradictions in teaching “caminar”

[TTanguero]

Yes, that makes sense.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I agree with this. It's in fact one of the hardest moves to actually lead/follow properly.

Interesting, because it's one of the first things that are taught to beginners. However, I will add that, when just starting out, I couldn't for the life of me get one follower to cross no matter how I tried or angled my torso in displacement. Perhaps she was just being stubborn but it was a frustrating experience.

 

[TTanguero]

Interesting, because it's one of the first things that are taught to beginners. However, I will add that, when just starting out, I couldn't for the life of me get one follower to cross no matter how I tried or angled my torso in displacement. Perhaps she was just being stubborn but it was a frustrating experience.

Yeah, I agree it's pretty hard for a new beginner, because it requires you to:
(a) dissociate and re-associate well
(b) coordinate that well to a step
(c) lead a longer step while taking a shorter one

So it's one of those things that looks very simple but actually requires decent technique.

 

[Rabbit]

Interesting, because it's one of the first things that are taught to beginners. However, I will add that, when just starting out, I couldn't for the life of me get one follower to cross no matter how I tried or angled my torso in displacement. Perhaps she was just being stubborn but it was a frustrating experience.

She was probably also trying to actually follow the lead instead of just doing the sequence - trouble is when both leader and follower are beginners they usually don't have enough communication skill yet to make it work properly. So the followers fudge it by crossing whenever the leader takes 2 steps on their right side - interestingly some advanced dancers still do this, and if I don't want them to cross I have to compensate by marking slightly to the right instead of straight ahead.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

She was probably also trying to actually follow the lead instead of just doing the sequence - trouble is when both leader and follower are beginners they usually don't have enough communication skill yet to make it work properly. So the followers fudge it by crossing whenever the leader takes 2 steps on their right side - interestingly some advanced dancers still do this, and if I don't want them to cross I have to compensate by marking slightly to the right instead of straight ahead.

Yes, it was a beginner class, probably my first few months of tango (and a very disheartening process). I was able to lead other followers but one in particular simply refused no matter how I changed my approach. The bigger problem was she didn't do anything to help me figure out why it didn't work, she remained passive and just sort of shrugged, and was kind of judgmental as well. So, altogether not helpful.

 

[TTanguero]

she remained passive and just sort of shrugged, and was kind of judgmental as well

Most of the followers in my classes are a delight, but there is one like this. I now consider one of my most advanced tango skills the ability to do a disguised bypass of her when we change partners in class ...

 

[LadyLeader]

I was 40+ when I got my driving license. At some occation the teacher told me that my education was/would be many weeks longer then the education was for the 20 years old students. There was a clear difference between the weeks and training hours for those two groups. The fast reactions and learning/adapting are true differences which drive even me to the younger dancers at an unknown milonga.

But there are other things. When a voluminous follower has a good technique there is nothing that can beat her magnificent ochos. Nothing. IMO there is also a stronger presence with a 50+ follower compared to the youngest on the pista.

One of my oldest (age) followers generates nearly always positive verbal feedback when we dance together. She was the most wobbliest beginner I ever met but she has worked on her technic continuously and changed a lot. But not quite. There still is a certain wobbliness left. I was impatient about it until I realized that it probably made her to a better follower and us a seamless entity. We were like a soft flag in the wind compared to a stiff one!

There were some doubts when I wrote about my teacher in driving school. I still think that he stated something he had found during his lifetime in the business. The same told a local tango teacher - Its wonderful that the students get it so fast.

I heard a brain researchers talk on local language today - I tried to find something in English and copy a link here.
A group of brain skills seems to be on top at 25 years. but " . . . .other measures of cognition—such as moral decision-making, regulating emotions and reading social situations—have been shown to improve beginning with middle age. "

Here a short story of the happenings during the decades:

https://www.canyonranch.com/blog/health/how-your-brain-changes-with-age/

 

[Bailango]

As I said, it's a question of proposal and counter-proposal: My follower has a perfectly good idea of what step is being led! However, it's her decision to accept that lead or to create something that fits the music and my movements as well as (or better than!) what I proposed. It isn't my improvised dance; it's our improvised dance. We each have veto power. Of course, we also each have the responsibility to listen to the music and to each other, and to insert only elements that fit.

This my preferred way to most enjoyable dances. Not sure if anyone would disagree with what you said.

Dancing tango is like jamming improvisational jazz. There's nothing wrong with me "being" the violin or voice while my partner is "being" the bandoneon, contrabass, or piano. We can "be" different parts of the same composition and remain in perfect complicity without rigid synchrony. All we need is a common idea of what our goals are, which is the entire point of the famous "connection" in tango – which is a state of mind, not a state of body.

Very beautifully put :

If I had to explain what I enjoyed most about my most memorable dances, you have given words to it!

 

[Bailango]

K. Whatever, although this contradicts everything I've ever been told about tango. We're not talking about embellishments here, but actually leading, right? Must be very old school milonga. I've never seen anything similar. We'll just have to disagree about this one.

If I understood it correctly, it doesn't contradict anything. It is at the core of any partner dance.

May be you think it interferes with your lead. No it doesn't. To me it makes leading more enjoyable. Follower is not subtracting from the lead but adding to it. Isn't that what we usually call active following.

 

[Bailango]

You are as qualified as anybody - for all we know we are all 8 year olds amusing ourselves by pretending to be "milongueros viejos" instead of doing our homework.

There is no qualification to be a thinking person @latinjazz

I personally would object to the "IN MILONGA ONLY" and the "letting them part - for me this core of what i consider to be "real tango" - an active follower and a leader collaborating on keeping the couple moving to the music. 2) which structures tango as a dance were we take turns dancing is somewhat unappealing to me. This goes into questions of what active following is, if it even exists, if it desirable, and how to create more of it if it is desirable. We have been brainstorming about this on this board for years.....

Rather than give into impulse and reply I need to patience to read three four pages of discussions. To avoid repeating what's been ready said

 

[Bailango]

Should be led. In workshops and classes, an experienced follower will do *nothing* without a clear lead. She'll simply stand there and wait for you to move. I don't know if I'm misunderstanding what's being proposed or am simply completely unfamiliar with the concept, but I'd like to see an example of how this works in practice.

I think you are misunderstanding and in a different frame of mind. I won't try to describe in words. It is far easier to demonstrate it in person. May be others succeeded after your post. I am still 3 pages or more behind the discussion.

@latinjazz, I don't think an observer would usually be able to tell. The dynamic is more internal to the couple.

In the tango I know and love, there is a high degree of harmony between the two dancers. Doesn't mean they are doing the exact same thing, of course, but they are not each dancing their own separate dance!

No it isn't about dancing separate dance. That would be horrible experience. Yes it is about harmony. Yes there is a lead. But it is also about how the follower executes it. I said I wouldn't explain in written. I am going to contradict myself. Let's say

My lead says to the follower, let's step from A to B in x direction in time t. That is I am starting from A at time t0, my energy and music clearly signals we have to arrive at B by tN. It is clear that tN-t0 is time it will take to move from A to B in direction x.

Then the follower has various options how to utilize that time tN-t0 to follow my lead from A to B, while not interfering with my movement, not running ahead or behind, while being able to suggest the path to go from A to B.

Further more optionally there could also be a suggestion from follower for path traverse to be tN plus Delta or tN-delta. Again it is a suggestion to the leader. If the leader accepts it, she will follow. If leader doesn't accepts it, the idea is abandoned and you together still arrive at B by tN, exactly as was lead.

In short there are two dimensions suggested. One was a suggestion by follower on the actual path to take from A to B in tN-t0, as per original lead intent. Other was a suggestion to change the time of arrival at B by delta. Leader has four options now as he starts off from A. His original intent plus two suggestions by follower plus combine both suggestions. Follower would follow any of the four options selected by the leader. You can easily add more dimensions. None of these suggestions are interfering with the dance because they are mere suggestions.

Phew. I can't believe I wrote that

When both leader and follower is experienced some form of above dynamic is at play. Either consciously or unconsciously.

 

[Tango Distance]

... step ... from A to B in x direction in time t ... starting from A at time t0, ... arrive at B by tN ... tN-t0 is time it will take to move from A to B in direction x ... time tN-t0 .. from A to B ... path to go from A to B ... path traverse ... tN plus Delta or tN-delta ... arrive at B by tN ... two dimensions... actual path ... A to B in tN-t0 ... change the time of arrival at B by delta ... starts off from A ... add more dimensions ...

Phew. I can't believe I wrote that

I can't believe I didn't write that! Reading your post was a great Tango moment for me! Keep them coming, this is the true essence of Tango!

 

[latinjazz]

@latinjazz, I don't think an observer would usually be able to tell. The dynamic is more internal to the couple.

I'm afraid I don't really know what post of mine this is an answer for... this thread is slowly becoming a "gran reserva", so I can't reread them all...
From the context, though, I assume your post is about how much of the follower's participation is lead?

 

[ArbeeNYC]

If I understood it correctly, it doesn't contradict anything. It is at the core of any partner dance.

May be you think it interferes with your lead. No it doesn't. To me it makes leading more enjoyable. Follower is not subtracting from the lead but adding to it. Isn't that what we usually call active following.

Hmm. It's not what I call active following, by which I mean an engaged follower.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

No it isn't about dancing separate dance. That would be horrible experience. Yes it is about harmony. Yes there is a lead. But it is also about how the follower executes it. I said I wouldn't explain in written. I am going to contradict myself. Let's say
...
When both leader and follower is experienced some form of above dynamic is at play. Either consciously or unconsciously.

I think I see what you're getting at. This part I understand given that followers affect movement in many different ways (they can use resistance or eliminate it, they can power around giros or slow them down a bit), although it has largely to do with timing and the mechanics of the embrace. However, it's also important to note that this may have a negative effect on how the music is being interpreted by the lead. Both parties would have to be in agreement about that for this to work.