Contradictions in teaching “caminar”

[JohnEm]

But it is a style question, John, they dance without any mistake (seen through Urquiza glasses). Of course you are free to reject the style, but you should acknowledge the mastery.

I should not have "to acknowledge the mastery" !
I'm entitled to my own opinion which was actually being sought.
I'm certainly not telling anyone else how to dance,
but I am able to explain what I do and also, as it happens,
usually what others do as you have already appreciated.

I like the footwork and musicality of this guy. But concerning styles, its a mishmash.

Styles in Tango are a mishmash: long may individuality
and personal choice in Tango continue.

 

[JohnEm]

Then, how about this, which is very, very different:

Published under a modest headline: "The Real Tango"!

Better than the Costas but not great.
Stressed embrace to lock themselves together,
no dissociation to speak of, predominately she is
a two footed dancer.

And an odd choice of musicality at times, performing
slow movements while the music leaves them behind
always jars. To demonstrate/perform slowly as a
counterpoint, choose music which has the variety.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

They were my favorites for a long time! I appreciate their musicality and elegance!

I have participated in a few of their workshops as well as in several Disparis' workshops. Costas are their students.

Oh well, that explains it from a stylistic point of view. Didn't know that. Thanks.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I personally don't like this style, the combination of bent knees and short steps doesn't look good, the left arm is also very high. I think these are social dancers, looking good to the audience is probably not high on their priority list and they are just dancing as they would in a milonga though? (now someone is going to tell me they're famous)

Personally, I love this style and it's difficult to pull off well. They are social dancers, which is the point. I wanted to see/show what very good social dancers can do. I don't know who the man is, but Tati was fairly well known. I love the way she dances here, by the way. I think they do look good, by the way, and their musicality is very fine.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Published under a modest headline: "The Real Tango"!

Better than the Costas but not great.
Stressed embrace to lock themselves together,
no dissociation to speak of, predominately she is
a two footed dancer.

And an odd choice of musicality at times, performing
slow movements while the music leaves them behind
always jars. To demonstrate/perform slowly as a
counterpoint, choose music which has the variety.

Me, I very much like their dancing here. Not sure what you mean about a stressed embrace, they both look very relaxed to me. And ignore the headline, I'm sure it wasn't theirs. However, it's definitely a form of social dancing, which is what is important. I happen to feel their musicality is very good. Not sure what you mean by a "two-footed" dancer when all we have are two feet. Show me something you like.

 

[JohnEm]

Me, I very much like their dancing here. Not sure what you mean about a stressed embrace, they both look very relaxed to me. And ignore the headline, I'm sure it wasn't theirs. However, it's definitely a form of social dancing, which is what is important. I happen to feel their musicality is very good. Not sure what you mean by a "two-footed" dancer when all we have are two feet. Show me something you like.

Strange, you post a video to see if I like it better,
I tell you I do but with caveats, you challenge the caveats.
Is there any point in having a discussion with you?

If you don't know the difference between embraces,
you have never tried all the possible variants. This is
visible though. Look at her toned arm with her hand
pressed on his back, locking them together.

Ask yourself why she feels the need to do that?

Wonderful high speed turns are possible this way but
it isn't subtle and it isn't fluid. Their upper spines and
back muscles across the shoulders are also locked.
As I said earlier, they don't dissociate - they aren't set up
to dissociate. His right arm and her left are also rigid.
As a way of dancing it does not compare well with
my preferred Argentine way of embracing.

A two footed dancer is one who moves from one two
footed weighted position to the next two footed weighted
position. She is rarely on axis, stable on one foot.
Fundamentally this changes the feel of her to her partner
and what the two of them can do together.
However he is better than her.

Show me something you like.

Look at any video of Ricardo Vidort.
He has been mentioned previously in this thread.
There are others but he is one of a kind.
Oscar Casas can dance too.

Bear in mind that I am not really interested in looking,
or even visual appeal. I learned the misleading nature
of that approach to Tango a very long time ago.

And I can assure you that despite all the attention given
to visual elegance of walking, elegance generally, and thus
to Villa Urquiza (an invented marketing name), the social
dancers of Buenos Aires don't dance that way. Theirs
is a pragmatic dance based on the possible in a crowded
milonga. It isn't ballroom, and I'm grateful for that.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Strange, you post a video to see if I like it better,
I tell you I do but with caveats, you challenge the caveats.
Is there any point in having a discussion with you?

...

And I can assure you that despite all the attention given
to visual elegance of walking, elegance generally, and thus
to Villa Urquiza (an invented marketing name), the social
dancers of Buenos Aires don't dance that way. Theirs
is a pragmatic dance based on the possible in a crowded
milonga. It isn't ballroom, and I'm grateful for that.

Well, I respect your caveats, but I'm interested in knowing why they exist not that they exist.

When you say her "toned arm" I assume you mean her left arm. And notwithstanding your claims, the leader looks pretty relaxed to me, so does she for that matter. It's funny you mention Vidort in this context, all of whose videos available on YouTube I've seen. I don't find his dancing fluid or subtle at all. I find it wonderful in a way but choppy and somewhat unrelenting in that he never seems to pause. He's always on the move. And while he's a very natural dancer, there's also something stiff about him. I prefer Casas more at this point.

As for embraces, I doubt I have tried "all" of them, but I've danced with women who use radically different embraces, so I do have experience. Some are more comfortable to dance with than others and I, of course, have my preferences. I'm fine with a pragmatic dance for a crowded milonga; I enjoy dancing that way, in fact. However, that doesn't rule out elegance or personal style. So, OK. You like Vidort and Casas.

 

[Gssh]

But concerning styles, its a mishmash.

? This sentence does not match with my image of you - i thought you were all about fluid embrace, switching frameworks, using frameworks from ballet, modern dance and contact improv?

 

[opendoor]

..But concerning styles, its a mishmash.

? This sentence does not match with my image of you - i thought you were all about fluid embrace, switching frameworks, using frameworks from ballet, modern dance and contact improv?

Of course, you´ve met my preferences. But I would always adjust the embrace and the style to the music, the dancer in the vid does not. The music rules the style, not the preferences.

 

[Gssh]

I personally don't like this style, the combination of bent knees and short steps doesn't look good, the left arm is also very high. I think these are social dancers, looking good to the audience is probably not high on their priority list and they are just dancing as they would in a milonga though? (now someone is going to tell me they're famous)

hmm. First, i actually think that the left arm (assuming you are talking about the leaders left arm?) might be too low for what they are doing with the embrace - her shoulders are not parallel to the ground, with her right shoulder being lower than the left one, which biases their dance into one direction. Then i think at least somewhat bent knees and short steps is how it should look like - there is no sport (or other movement discipline that where fast and flexible movement in all direction is requited) that uses straight legs and large steps. Sure, for a performance where we want to show off we can trade off good movement in favour of looking pretty, but that is in the end just frosting, not the cake. I think we would be a lot better off if we admitted that the bent leg is the actual foundational technique - instead we spend a lot of time confusing beginners with asking for a straight leg, but some flex, so it behaves like a bent leg, but looks superficially like a straight leg, and of course not locked out, but as close to locked out as possible. You can always add some glitter after you have an actually edible cake, but instead we have people starting with the glitter, and then they complain that their stuff is not edible/doesn't actually work as a dance. (one of my teachers used to call it "greens" (and his opinion of how much greens one should in relation to meat was quite.... argentine)

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Of course, you´ve met my preferences. But I would always adjust the embrace and the style to the music, the dancer in the vid does not. The music rules the style, not the preferences.

The music always rules.

 

[LadyLeader]

Of course, you´ve met my preferences. But I would always adjust the embrace and the style to the music, the dancer in the vid does not. The music rules the style, not the preferences.

What embrace and style alternatives do you operate with? What categories do you have in music and how do you combine them to style/embrace?

I understand that there are many alternatives but roughly how does it go? The main categories, combinations?

 

[JohnEm]

When you say her "toned arm" I assume you mean her left arm. And notwithstanding your claims, the leader looks pretty relaxed to me, so does she for that matter.

There you go with "looks" again. You need to feel the consequences.
You can experiment with your own body although the results
depend on your own abilities, fitness and self-awareness.
Be careful not to be influenced by your own preconceptions.

Put yourself in the woman's left arm position as well, feel what
that does to your ability to twist and be internally free.
Ask yourself why she feels the need to have her arm and hand
stressed in such a manner to clamp the bodies together.
Is it her or is it him?

It's funny you mention Vidort in this context, all of whose videos available on YouTube I've seen. I don't find his dancing fluid or subtle at all.

It's why I don't use his "Tango Pose" left arm held high position.

I find it wonderful in a way but choppy and somewhat unrelenting in that he never seems to pause. He's always on the move. And while he's a very natural dancer, there's also something stiff about him. I prefer Casas more at this point.

Beware of performance - context is everything.
But Ricardo Vidort did like the rhythmic pieces.
By the time nearly all the video which exists he
was terminally ill, and weakening by the year.
We don't know what that did to his dancing ability,
all of us dance what we are at the time.

I agree that Oscar Casas seems more freely fluid.

 

[LadyLeader]

What are the last names for these two?

I found some videos with Tati but i am not sure. It is interesting to see how they dance with different partners. What changes and what is stable for the dancer.

(I love the Brussel festival videos with partner changes! Totally new aspects turn up.)

 

[JohnEm]

What are the last names for these two?

I found some videos with Tati but i am not sure. It is interesting to see how they dance with different partners. What changes and what is stable for the dancer.

(I love the Brussel festival videos with partner changes! Totally new aspects turn up.)

Are you confusing Los Totis with Tati?


Tati appears yet again at Cachirulo with Ricardo Suarez more than once.
She seemed to have been a favourite there. There's nothing recent.

I say seemed because of this:

¿Quién era María Cecilia "Tati" Caviglia, la mujer que fue hallada calcinada en una valija? | InfoVeloz.com

Había desaparecido el 25 de agosto y al día siguiente apareció su cuerpo calcinado en una valija en ruta 2.

www.diarioveloz.com

A rough Google translation appeared on Reddit
which I've slightly changed to correct glaring errors:

Who was Maria Cecilia "Tati" Caviglia,
the woman who was found burned in a suitcase?
09/08/2016 18:11 pm
She had disappeared on August 25 and the next day her burnt body
was found contained in a suitcase on Route 2. She was identified today as
Maria Cecilia "Tati" Caviglia , 50, is the woman whose disappearance
had been reported the day before.
Tati Caviglia was the owner of the hostel "La Casa de Tati" located at
1636 Independence Avenue, in San Cristobal.
She was an amateur teacher of tango.

In fact, the hostel also functioned as a ballroom for tango
and is a favorite for the Buenos Aires milonga habitues.
In the hostel she lived with Ezequiel Victor Blanco, a maintenance man
with whom she had an affair. Today he is the prime suspect for two issues:
nothing is known of his whereabouts and plus bloodstains and signs
of a struggle were found.

I remember the news at the time in BA
but hadn't made the connection before
because I don't go to Cachirulo.