opendoor
Forum Master
Stage dancers usually claim that their dancing is style-free or better that it includes all varieties of styles. They wrinkle their nose that social dancers mostly stick to only one style.
Contradictions in teaching “caminar”
- Thread starter latinjazz
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ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Well, they have to defend their position. However, the fact that it "includes all styles" is not a positive element of their dance in my book.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
Maybe, but I suppose no one had more influence on tango style than Copes.
Yes indeed. Their dances are merely visual representations.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
I think many of the older milongueros would dispute that claim. Not to mention other fantasia dancers who prided themselves on their own style and choreography.
This is something that i have been looking for - when i want to mumble tango mystically i call it the invisible tango. And currently it has lead me to looking more and more at old tango. The moments that i have enjoyed most with followers have never been the big showpiece productions, where one is to some extent reduced to an audience instead of an partner, but the small, barely felt adornment or change of geometry that opened up new possibilities in what in the music we can dance to, or where we can go. And trying to figure out how i could do this more consistently lead me to what i am trying to dance now.
One of the things that has helped me thinking about this were tina feys rules of improv comedy, especially 2) and 3):
1) Always agree and say yes
2) Not only say yes, but yes, and...
3) Make statements
4) There are no mistakes, only opportunities
I think that as a leader one of the keys for me was that i felt that despite what we say about the followers role a lot of the vocabulary and the use of music was making this difficult. If there is only one option to go safely there is no space to make a statement. If there is no shared concern for the couples geometry we are not working the "and" part of the "yes, and..".
JournalInTime
Forum Master
My teacher once told me that when I stopped showing up with "I tried X but it didn't work" and started coming to her with "I tried X and it turned into Y," I had truly started to dance. As she said, steps, sequences, and bits of choreography are just teaching tools. We rarely use them "as is" at the milonga because they don't survive fluctuations introduced by leader, follower, other couples, noise in the recording, someone's lost earring on the floor, or whatever. If we're really dancing, we use those surprises as springboards to improvisation.
For me, the fun of tango is that it is (or can be, or dare I say should be) a series of proposals and counter-proposals. The dance is in a constant state of real-time negotiation, not under anyone's control. I derive no pleasure from leading a follower who insists that I take 100% responsibility for the improvisation; frankly, that's work, not fun. Complicity is joy.
In theoretical discussions, though, trouble sometimes arrives when someone mistake complicity for synchronization. People can cooperate without doing the same thing, in this case without dancing on the same element of the music, same instrument, or whatever – or even without having the same idea of what step is being danced. Clever contrast or counterpoint is complicity at its finest. But in my "I tried X and it didn't work" phase, I didn't get that and tended to see lack of synchronization as a mistake, not an opportunity.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
That sounds like a recipe for disaster or mutual misunderstanding. I would hope you're both dancing to the same thing. If you're in synch, your interpretations should not be dissimilar. And if she has no idea what step is being led, well, you're each dancing your own separate dance.
LadyLeader
Forum Master
I think for me the first memory of a leader/follower split was in miloga. I did not mind if the follower did the traspies together with me, skipped them or did them without my lead. IF she was on the music - that was the criterium!
If I was doing H1---H3---H1---H3--- and so on
She could do H1-- H2H3---H1-H2H3---
She could do H1---H3-H4-H1---H3-H4- and so on
or we could do something else!
But we still need to navigate together.
When the music offered parallel paths we could go parallel and come together again when music come together.
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LadyLeader
Forum Master
If all the instruments were doing the exact same thing and melody never left the rhythm (possible?) the songs would be so boring compared with the variation they have now.
That feeling of boredom was the very reason driving me to experiment with the leader/follower split where I was doing something and the follower got space to do something else.
The old stories of high leader skill were about the leader leading followers melody moves when he was doing the rhythmical part. I took an easier way and let her choose her own steps!
That feeling of boredom was the very reason driving me to experiment with the leader/follower split where I was doing something and the follower got space to do something else.
The old stories of high leader skill were about the leader leading followers melody moves when he was doing the rhythmical part. I took an easier way and let her choose her own steps!
JournalInTime
Forum Master
I disagree.
As I said, it's a question of proposal and counter-proposal: My follower has a perfectly good idea of what step is being led! However, it's her decision to accept that lead or to create something that fits the music and my movements as well as (or better than!) what I proposed. It isn't my improvised dance; it's our improvised dance. We each have veto power. Of course, we also each have the responsibility to listen to the music and to each other, and to insert only elements that fit.
That doesn't require synchronization. It requires complicity. LadyLeader said it well, so I'll quote her:
It's exactly this.
Dancing tango is like jamming improvisational jazz. There's nothing wrong with me "being" the violin or voice while my partner is "being" the bandoneon, contrabass, or piano. We can "be" different parts of the same composition and remain in perfect complicity without rigid synchrony. All we need is a common idea of what our goals are, which is the entire point of the famous "connection" in tango – which is a state of mind, not a state of body.
Yep.
One of the things I like best is to give my partner room for a "solo." I pause, or simply walk (often slowly), and make sure there's enough time and physical space for her to do whatever she likes. All I ask is that: (1) what she does is on the music, and (2) eventually, she gives me room for a "solo." The very act of trading solos and seeking to do whatever we do on the music ensures that we're communicating and dancing together. We're just not both boringly dancing to the same element (beat, rhythm, melody) or instrument all the time, no more than every member of the orchestra is playing the same notes. Nor am I taking 100% responsibility for everything, which in my mind would be some seriously macho garbage.
My experience is that I feel like I'm truly dancing with someone only when we both have space to create and yet we're both acutely aware of who has what part of the music just now. We're jamming together, and it's really cool. When we're slaves to a pure lead/follow mechanic, I'm no longer dancing with someone; I'm making someone dance, which is about as interesting to me as cutting up someone's food.
It's interesting to read how so many musicians of the Época de Oro had contact with jazz musicians; the Jazz Age overlapped the Época de Oro significantly. Jazz's values of jamming and improvisation influenced tango music, and I'm happiest when that's in the dance as well.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Umm, aren't you supposed to be leading her steps? You're not doing two separate dances. You guys should be in synch.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Well, if you want to dance your dance and she wants to dance her dance, have at it. They must be doing things differently in your neck of the woods. But sure makes leading difficult if your follower can make a split-second decision on whether she's going to follow your lead or not. Has nothing to do with the fact that the dance is mutually improvised.
Not necessarily - one of my teachers taught this as the core of really old school milonga - the follower mostly stays on the basic beat, and the leader to some extent dances around the structure of the walk this generates. So as a leader you navigate, and organize the dance, but her walk is to basically independent of yours. It requires both of us to be in synch with the music, and leading is different - you no longer lead the walk, but the the music/bar/phrase. So instead of leading "a sidestep to the right" it is more "the next strong beat we will be right of where we are now". If the follower trusts the music you can be very in synch with each other, (because we are both following the music really tightly), without them being specifically in synch with you.