Contradictions in teaching “caminar”

[LadyLeader]

Umm, aren't you supposed to be leading her steps? You're not doing two separate dances. You guys should be in synch.

I lead the steps when the follower is still in the learning mode but when she has mature musicality and movements she can dance herself.

It is a kind of different perspective. In an orchestra, the violin is doing an independent soundtrack. The base and piano some times totally different track. The orchestra leader will keep the whole song together.

At the beginning stage, the leader has to keep it all together - music,steps,follower - having a kind of orchestra leader role. Later on the song, music playing will have this organizing role. We kind of switch from leader organization to music organization for the couple!

 

[Gssh]

That doesn't require synchronization. It requires complicity.

I would not call it complicitly, but collaboration - we both use technique and musicality to create, and maintain "the couple" as a gestalt. I don't really think of this as proposal/counterproposal in the sense that we propose to each other, or that we have solos, but more in a sense that we both continously propose to "the couple". The whole dynamic is really difficult to communicate, because on the on hand it is like we can do whatever we want, but on the other hand what we actually can do is very specific - we need to maintain the couple, and geometry and pulse require that we move within a certain slice of possibilities. It is like the freedom of an expert thight-rope walker: they can do a wide variety of amazing things, but they can't step off the rope. We are a bit better off there - if we break the couple we can always rejoin (and if we do it intentionally it can actually be a neat option). To dance like that requires a lot of (explicit or implicit) attention to what possibilites we both have, and where the balance of the couple is, and where our feet are, and all that, but when it works, when we get to this state were be both no longer dance with each other, but the couple dances it is quite intoxicating.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Not necessarily - one of my teachers taught this as the core of really old school milonga -

K. Whatever, although this contradicts everything I've ever been told about tango. We're not talking about embellishments here, but actually leading, right? Must be very old school milonga. I've never seen anything similar. We'll just have to disagree about this one.

 

[Gssh]

I've never seen anything similar. We'll just have to disagree about this one.

People don't tend to emphasize this aspect (the reliance on the follower to keep the rhythm, and then stealing it back from her) when talking about it, but for example when you watch Omar Vega you can see him using this concept pretty clearly - he switches between dancing with his partner and around them pretty obviously.

 

[brunoalfirevic]

K. Whatever, although this contradicts everything I've ever been told about tango. We're not talking about embellishments here, but actually leading, right? Must be very old school milonga. I've never seen anything similar. We'll just have to disagree about this one.

For tango, I am certainly in "every step is led" camp, with only occasional and rare exception. But for milonga, I think there is some truth to the notion that there is less of an explicit lead for each and every step (especially for in-place weight changes). You don't observe this in yourself and others around you?

 

[LadyLeader]

I am not always aware of the skills which have been developed during the dancing years. If you are interested to take the path from Leader improvisation mode => Couple improvisation mode you need to have a quite strong skill on maintaining the flow in spite of the surprises on the pista. How to know if it is time for that?

During the first years, I did not have that skill. If my lead failed and she did something else the dance stopped and we restarted. Today I am able to compensate so the dance flow continues. I follow her, I fill in, I adapt and so on!

When I talk about an improvising follower it is not about backleading and it is not about her leading me but it is something else. It is more like the situation when she misunderstands my lead and does something else. It is more about how I handle misunderstandings or a series of misunderstandings during a tanda!

If you can manage the follower's *failures* during a tanda and keep the flow going then you are probably able to manage a skillful follower's improvisation. This is IMO a possibility to check if you as a leader are ready for the couple improvisation mode.

I have played with some followers during a milonga tanda by letting them do the steps of her choice and keeping my steps on the basic pulse. Some did not like it and i started to lead as usual. Some others did find it fun and with them I will continue.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

People don't tend to emphasize this aspect (the reliance on the follower to keep the rhythm, and then stealing it back from her) when talking about it, but for example when you watch Omar Vega you can see him using this concept pretty clearly - he switches between dancing with his partner and around them pretty obviously.

That the follower keeps the rhythm is one thing, I'm not disputing that. However, that you and the follower are dancing separate steps or she is dancing things that you have not lead is quite different. There are a number of ways a follower can keep that rhythm, but within the framework of the steps you lead.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

For tango, I am certainly in "every step is led" camp, with only occasional and rare exception. But for milonga, I think there is some truth to the notion that there is less of an explicit lead for each and every step (especially for in-place weight changes). You don't observe this in yourself and others around you?

I observe it only when the dance is poorly led or poorly danced. If you watch the best of the older generation of dancers, and many youngers ones as well, those steps are led and are in synch. If you're doing a traspie, you're partner should be doing it with you. (Sure, in a tango you could have the case of an enrosque, where the leader pivots and the follower moves around him, but it is still led.)

 

[ArbeeNYC]

When I talk about an improvising follower it is not about backleading and it is not about her leading me but it is something else. It is more like the situation when she misunderstands my lead and does something else. It is more about how I handle misunderstandings or a series of misunderstandings during a tanda!

That is an entirely different issue, however.

 

[Gssh]

If you're doing a traspie, you're partner should be doing it with you.

I am not describing the dynamics of this well, and i am afraid we are talking on cross purposes. For example here (2 minutes in) he is doing a double (triple?) time walk, and she is staying on single time. (a variant of this is actually one of my favourite things to do in milonga - one of the keys for doing this with followers who are not accustomed to hold the pulse for the couple when the leader goes off from what has been established without leading anything different is to do it as fast as one can manage, so that it is obvious for them that they can't synch up, and usually after a the second step they give up. Another somewhat easy way to get a follower who tries to follow the leaders feet instead of the pulse of the couple is to traspie ones sidesteps during the followers backsteps in ochos - they are busy crossing so that they usually won't traspie their step there)

 

[brunoalfirevic]

If you watch the best of the older generation of dancers, and many youngers ones as well, those steps are led and are in synch. If you're doing a traspie, you're partner should be doing it with you.

Yes, that was not in dispute at any time (at least from my side). A step, a traspie and a pause are all very much led.

 

[latinjazz]

I’m so ashamed of commenting this as an absolute beginner... But keeping my mouth shot is a weak side of mine, so here my opinion on the matter:

The 2 main freedoms of followers I observe in Milongas are:
1. The discussed matter: Followers making additional steps or playing with the rhythm and leaders “letting them” (waiting until they feel the position ready to go on) - IN MIlONGA ONLY
2. In Tango: Passages where the leader stops and the follower plays with her and for example the leader’s leg, until both communicate they are ready to go on with the leader-follower concept.

Do I get this wrong? If I’m saying ridiculous things, just please ignore me..

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Yes, that was not in dispute at any time (at least from my side). A step, a traspie and a pause are all very much led.

Well, maybe I'm misunderstanding the question or what is being proposed.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I’m so ashamed of commenting this as an absolute beginner... But keeping my mouth shot is a weak side of mine, so here my opinion on the matter:

The 2 main freedoms of followers I observe in Milongas are:
1. The discussed matter: Followers making additional steps or playing with the rhythm and leaders “letting them” (waiting until they feel the position ready to go on) - IN MIlONGA ONLY
2. In Tango: Passages where the leader stops and the follower plays with her and for example the leader’s leg, until both communicate they are ready to go on with the leader-follower concept.

Do I get this wrong? If I’m saying ridiculous things, just please ignore me..

You're getting it mostly right, but in tango, those things are simply embellishments or movements without a change of axis. Noelia does with Carlitos a lot, but many people have criticized precisely that aspect of their dancing.

Yes, there are things in milonga (even in tango in certain cases), where one partner can remain more or less stationary and the other can move around them or play with rhythm. But I would like to see an example of this that is not simply an embellishment. I mentioned the case of enrosque, maybe even a calesita, but these are all led steps.

 

[Gssh]

I’m so ashamed of commenting this as an absolute beginner.

The 2 main freedoms of followers I observe in Milongas are:
1. The discussed matter: Followers making additional steps or playing with the rhythm and leaders “letting them” (waiting until they feel the position ready to go on) - IN MIlONGA ONLY
2. In Tango: Passages where the leader stops and the follower plays with her and for example the leader’s leg, until both communicate they are ready to go on with the leader-follower concept.

You are as qualified as anybody - for all we know we are all 8 year olds amusing ourselves by pretending to be "milongueros viejos" instead of doing our homework.

I personally would object to the "IN MILONGA ONLY" and the "letting them part - for me this core of what i consider to be "real tango" - an active follower and a leader collaborating on keeping the couple moving to the music. 2) which structures tango as a dance were we take turns dancing is somewhat unappealing to me. This goes into questions of what active following is, if it even exists, if it desirable, and how to create more of it if it is desirable. We have been brainstorming about this on this board for years.....