Contradictions in teaching “caminar”

? Vidort is all about playing with the followers axis and timing, and weaving in and out of their footwork and nonstop saccadas - I think i got the idea of lopsided progressive ochos from him. Chicho tends to be actually mostly quite aligned with his follower pulse wise.


lets looks at this: he uses a volcada to switch from the parallel system to the crossed system at :23, then a double time for her to get back to the parallel system, then another off axis move at :27 where he offsets his and her footwork and systems three times so get into the cross system again and then he has her step twice while he steps once again and gets back into the parallel system using with a saccada at :29. Within 6 seconds vidort has shown more of this concept of the leader and follower moving in and out of synch and how that changes geometry than i think i have seen in any of chichos performances - Chicho draws movement out so he doesn't really need to do this to create his geometries.
But all I'm saying is Myriam Pincen is not leading her own steps or ignoring his lead. THere's a lead/follow game going on here. It doesn't matter how complex his footwork is (Casas's footwork can be pretty complex that way, too), what matters is that he and his partner are synchronized. You said something very different much earlier, namely that the leader could do his thing but the follower could add, insert, or ignore his lead and do something else. The Vidort example is quite different, however. If this is what you're referring to, we're quibbling about terminology.
 
If this is what you're referring to, we're quibbling about terminology.

this is what i was afraid of - on of the big pitfalls about talking about dance - i just reacted your response to opendoors statement that he was working with chicho on dissociating his lead from his footwork by doing exercises like leading 3 steps while walking 2 steps, and it seemed to imply that you thought that vidort would not do that (i.e. having his own footwork dissociated from the followers footwork - which is really one of the fundamental (and unique) techniques of tango - everytime we switch from the between crossed and parallel system one of us did 2 steps and the other one did 1) ). So you would agree that we can be in synchronized if we don't step at the same time, as an extreme example assume i step on the 1 and , and then (really slow) i step on the 1 again, while i lead my follower to just run ahead ...12341234 (to do that i probably would have to do crossed ochos or something, this is just for the sake of clarifying concepts/language)? (or the other way round - i lead them to be on the strong beat in the milonga and just do different stuff with my own footwork around their steady walk)?

So a couple is synchronized if the follower follows the lead independent of what the footwork might be (as long as the footwork is 100% lead)?

If we agree on this then i don't see what i was saying before to be very different - i just think that the footwork does not need to be 100% lead if the result is the same in the end. A pretty theoretical example would be the follower arriving at exactly the same point, at exactly the same spot as lead, just using different footwork - e.g. i lead 1 step, and they do 3 steps during that time and arrive at exactly the same spot, on the same foot. I consider us to be still in synch - and because it is a theoretical example i did not even notice it, to me there was no perceivable difference.

Now of course this is a ridiculous example - i don't think this is physically possible (well, there are some people who have really fast feet, so it might be possible). In reality there is something that is kinda close to that - the follower "does stuff" like slowing down, or extending or compressing a step, or curving tighter, or whatever (including, if the conditions are just right, switching systems and adding steps), that does not break the geometry of the couple and its relationship with the music and still keeps the couple in synch.
 
.......I make a distinction between style and technique..
..You can do the sorts of things you describe if you dance like Chicho and Juana, not if you're Ricardo Vidort. You see where I'm going?
;) Thank you for the request to retire. Joke aside, you can argue like this, but you cannot invoke Ricardo Vidort at the same time. Vidort is the Bruce Lee of tango, the one who put an end to styles (although the origins of his own dancing are quite obvious). He invited his students to develop their own style as long as it was centered in feeling and musicality. Ironically, just Vidort is the authority for my insisting in the separation of style and technique (technique in a wider sense). All milonguero saints and stylites (Cacho Dante, Tete Rusconi, Omar Vega) had a strong foundation in dance technique. (Think you remember that Tete collaborated with Pina Bausch).
The crucial problem with the milonguero style is: it looks easy, but inherently it is the most difficult style. It places the highest demands on body presence and posture. That leads to a really bizarre situation: in the local scenes the poor dancers are committed to the milonguero style, while ambitious dancers go on and on with technique classes. So arguing for the introduction of proprietary techniques (as you did) would legalize this situation and lead to a two-tire system, recognizable from the distance by the dance style.
 
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So a couple is synchronized if the follower follows the lead independent of what the footwork might be (as long as the footwork is 100% lead)?

More or less. My argument was against the claim that the follower could move independently of the lead. Now, I said specifically, that I excluded embellishments from that restriction. Embellishments can include many things, even snappy double-time foot movements by the follower. The point is the follower still has to land on the correct foot or remain on the intended foot. She doesn't arbitrarily switch from parallel to cross system.

If we agree on this then i don't see what i was saying before to be very different - i just think that the footwork does not need to be 100% lead if the result is the same in the end.

Well, "if the result is the same in the end" to me it implies that she is on the correct foot at the end of his step.

A pretty theoretical example would be the follower arriving at exactly the same point, at exactly the same spot as lead, just using different footwork - e.g. i lead 1 step, and they do 3 steps during that time

This sounds like an embellishment. Not sure what it's called. The point is that she has to end up with her axis where the leader expects it to be. If I step with my right (in parallel), she would have to end up on her left foot at the end. What you're implying is that she can step left-right-left and end up in the same place. I guess that's theoretically possible. But she's liable to end up pulling the leader along with her as she takes those extra steps. For me, right now, this whole thing is too theoretical and abstract.
 
;) Thank you for the request to retire.

Well, I hadn't intended for you to leave the pista just yet.

Joke aside, you can argue like this, but you cannot invoke Ricardo Vidort at the same time. Vidort is the Bruce Lee of tango, the one who put an end to styles (although the origins of his own dancing are quite obvious).

Never quite thought of him that way, but whatever. Although Vidort does have a very definite and personal style. I invoked him to point out that he and his follower are dancing a lead/follow dance, no matter how complex. (Casas is equally complex in his footwork, to me at least, and has his own style as well.) You're getting off the topic though and my own resistance to the original claim that the follower could sort of do her own thing and it would be fine in the end. Regardless of the complexity of Vidort or Cases or Ricardo Viquiera's footwork, their followers move (have to move) in an expected fashion for the dance to work. In a lot of nuevo dancing, where the partners are not even in contact, it almost doesn't matter because of the way the dancers use their bodies.

He invited his students to develop their own style as long as it was centered in feeling and musicality. Ironically, just Vidort is the authority for my insisting in the separation of style and technique (technique in a wider sense).

Well, style and technique are always different. Technique is simply a means to an end.

All milonguero saints and stylites (Cacho Dante, Tete Rusconi, Omar Vega) had a strong foundation in dance technique. (Think you remember that Tete collaborated with Pina Bausch).

Had no idea he collaborated with Bausch and I don't see much dance technique in his dancing if you mean training in ballet or modern dance. Not a fan of Rusconi, though.

The crucial problem with the milonguero style is: it looks easy, but inherently it is the most difficult style. It places the highest demands on body presence and posture.

Could be. I never said it was easy.

That leads to a really bizarre situation: in the local scenes the poor dancers are committed to the milonguero style, while ambitious dancers go on and on with technique classes. So arguing for the introduction of proprietary techniques (as you did) would legalize this situation and lead to a two-tire system, recognizable from the distance by the dance style.

I don't think this is accurate or follows from your earlier statement. Good and bad dancers are committed to it and to other styles as well. Makes no difference. I find the best local dancers are committed to it; the others end up with technique classes and pseudo-nuevo moves. Some do both. There's no clear-cut division between good and bad and one style or another.
 
For me, right now, this whole thing is too theoretical and abstract.
For me too :(. It is the same problem i have when trying to talk about counterbalanced close embrace / apilado / sharing weight - the concrete reality of dancing is subtle and basically invisible, and not really that well communicable outside of personal experience. All we can do is to give extreme examples that hopefully communicate at least something (though to be honest when talking about sharing weight the response of "the lean is always an illusion" is for me easier to deal with than "like a gavito performance?").
My main point is that there is a space for active following in tango, and that it goes beyond embellishment, it can be a "load bearing" part of the dance that changes the geometry and dynamics of the dance, without breaking the lead follow dynamic. (of course, one of the aspects of it is that sometimes it actually is embellishments - if we look at e.g. the toe tap at 1:57 in the vidort performance above is is on the one hand an embellishment - on the other hand if we watch him/the dynamics of the couple we see that he changes his dance and timing to work with the input she gave there - it is not sneaked in invisibly, but actively shapes the couple - but on the other hand she put it into a spot and time where this adjustment did not break the dance).
It is one of the things that is often repeated in tango teaching "if the follower embellishes the leader has to accomodate it", but is really rarely done - followers are not actually taught how to use embellishments in the dance effectively, and leaders are not taught how to accomodate them. Instead we have this awful turn taking where the leader does a sandwich, stops leading (and dancing tango), the follower does some pointless stuff that is not part of the partner dance but some kind of solo performance, and then we continue dancing tango.
There are way to many sensible things being said in classes that sometimes feel like they belong to a completely different dance than what is being taught.
 
It is one of the things that is often repeated in tango teaching "if the follower embellishes the leader has to accomodate it", but is really rarely done - followers are not actually taught how to use embellishments in the dance effectively, and leaders are not taught how to accomodate them. Instead we have this awful turn taking where the leader does a sandwich, stops leading (and dancing tango), the follower does some pointless stuff that is not part of the partner dance but some kind of solo performance, and then we continue dancing tango.
There are way to many sensible things being said in classes that sometimes feel like they belong to a completely different dance than what is being taught.

Yeah, if and when embellishments are taught to followers, they are taught in classes for followers, often as part of women's technique classes. I was told and came to believe that the best embellishments are those that are imperceptible (or barely perceptible) to the leader and don't require shutting down temporarily to let the follower do something on the floor. It takes a long time for a leader to learn to leave room (time/space) for a follower to interject something into the dance. And some followers are better at it than others; it's not easy for them either. I hear you about the silly sandwich solos.
 
Yeah, if and when embellishments are taught to followers, they are taught in classes for followers, often as part of women's technique classes. I was told and came to believe that the best embellishments are those that are imperceptible (or barely perceptible) to the leader and don't require shutting down temporarily to let the follower do something on the floor.

I love when the follower is embellishing to express something in the music, and actively want to feel it.

What I don't want is random decorations that don't have anything to do with the music every time I lead a front ocho or parada (I blame the women's technique classes for this)
 
I love when the follower is embellishing to express something in the music, and actively want to feel it.

How actively? It shouldn't be like "Whoa! What was that?" kind of active.

What I don't want is random decorations that don't have anything to do with the music every time I lead a front ocho or parada (I blame the women's technique classes for this)

Probably. Women's technique classes are largely led/taught be stage dancers who do nothing but embellishments and showy moves for the most part. Subtle embellishments are an art. So is the musicality part. Of course, you could also just not lead a parada. ;)
 
How actively? It shouldn't be like "Whoa! What was that?" kind of active.

For example, if we're moving in single time, the follower can do a foot tap on a syncopation en route to the next step. or if the leader has finished moving on the strong beat at the end of the phrase, she can express something in the melody that's leading into the next phrase. There is also the option to do something within the embrace that the leader will feel, but is invisible on the outside.

I don´t like the subliminal message of this article because it entrenches the two existing tango spheres (traditional vs. show) while I would argue to bridge the gap.

So why link it at all? The author of the article, as typical with people who write such articles, has only a superficial understanding of what he labels as "modern". I could point out the numerous errors, but I don't want to restart the style debate in this thread.
 
I don´t like the subliminal message of this article because it entrenches the two existing tango spheres (traditional vs. show) while I would argue to bridge the gap.

Interesting about his terminology. Haven't finished the piece yet but the author raises some interesting points. So, he creates an umbrella term "modern tango" that covers all the "modern" non-traditional forms of tango: nuevo, neo, and whatever. I can't say I'm surprised by anything he says, and agree with the author about the externalization of the dance.
 
Quite a productive topic (many posts) :)

My only mantra for true tango is if it brings emotions to you or not. :)
Sometimes we dance to feel emotionally alive or physically alive.

Dancing AT can have a short term or long term on someone. Only mileage will tell.

Many people creates desires that AT needs to fulfill, but they are rarely aware what they give to social dancing.
In AT, as in life, it is far more important what you give than what you receive. ;)

Regarding to many way that students are taught to do something.
There will be situation when the wrong way will be the right way.
You never know how you need to adapt to your partner so your dancing will be enjoyable.
 

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