CORTANDO THE OCHO... heeelp!

[Mario7]

Sorry if I am making things more complicated for you.

Not at all! You did a great job of clearing up the movements...I'm really glad that you are posting on this.

 

[Mario7]

.... The problem with beginner followers is that they are not used to listening to forces applied to their bodies and often fight them and stumble rather than go with the flow. .

Aha, this observation rings very true to me. And it relieves me of the fear of falling into chorreography...that is why advanced dancers do the Cortado sooo easily...it's not a code nor chorreography, it is just an advanced reaction, the result of listening to forces applied to their bodies..it makes sense!!!:google:

 

[Mario7]

I never think of turning or twisting the feet when leading this movement. These actions only increase the chance for error; over-rotating, turning/twisting too soon, upsetting balance/timing. Try this, please.
Stand in the normal posiiton with the arms extended outward in front of you, and rounded, as if holding a beach ball. Dance to the position of the crusada, then to the position of the lady's forward step into the ocho.
.....This is the proper lead for the cortado basico. Trust me. Try it. It's all about creating and taking space; moving on and around one's center, and not about putting, placing, making the lady go anywhere.

..This seem like pure genius to me...I am starting to practice dancing alone while holding my arms forward in an 'around a beachball' position instead of the normal embrace arms. Walking thru my dances like this, lets me see exactly where and how I am moving around my center....tres bien!!

 

[dchester]

Thinking of it as a rock step helps some people as well.

 

[bordertangoman]

following what whassisname said above about the cross coming as a turn; you might like to look at this video of close embrace turns by Homer and Christina Ladas; she crosses in front in the giro; which is the last part of the OC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeIw9uvPwtY

 

[Mario7]

OK, I promised to report back...we did 1 1/2 hrs today, all on the Ocho Cortado.
We are going to continue with it tomorrow because the Milonga is tomorrow night and
we want to dance in Parallel only and what is Parallel dancing without an ocho cortado?
Anyway, the short of it is that nothing worked {for us} but we were a lot better at the end of the 1 1/2 hrs than we were at the beginning.
I tried to faithfully execute the beachball (total disaster when I tried to keep feet stationary and just swing the body..it was too fast and too nebulous a lead..I'm sure I misunderstand the directions), the right foot wrapping around the left (works great alone for a circular lead but I lost my balance with my practice partner).
Then an hour later, somethings started to work..my partner is a beginner and she was using three steps to get to the side position instead of two (front cross, side step)..OK..she eventually figured it out, made it smooth, and I made my lead stronger to help her.
We then worked on getting her left leg loose without tension when in the side position..and I used the helpful advice to move her weight to her right foot and a little beyond...that should move her left leg to float towards her right and then when past her balance point to swing forward of her right foot...it started to happen...meanwhile, I added a pivot of my hand on the small of her back as I moved her weight...my hand guided the muscle of her left leg (that goes thru the small of the back) in instead of out...that helped...and in the past, I've found the hand on the small of the back a big help in making her weight changes go in the right direction.
So, I must add that at the beginning of the session, she 'naturally' went to a back cross instead of a front cross in the cortado part...so, we went with it and tried to make it work that way but it was way too cumbersome in comparison with the front cross cortado...
... Well, that's today's report...it wasn't all that bad at the end..we will try again tomorrow... meanwhile I just noticed that Osc.Casas uploaded a new video today wherein the beginning shows him collecting his feet at an important point in the cortado;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_71ZWHj3wMY
I will try this too, tomorrow... mil gracias for all your help...say a prayer for me.
PS..I don't know how I missed this...but this guy is collecting his right foot, too!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igBmgSnh9Go

 

[Steve Pastor]

Wanna be an "authentic" apilado leader?
(I'm kinda sorta kidding here, I know you are just figuring this out, but... And you know how much I love it, but also how frustrating it is.)
Seriously, the more you enable her by helping her with your right hand, the more she will rely on it, and the more you will, too.
I now believe that in the world of AT there is WAY more "helping" than we admit.
I've had more than one dedicated "apilado" instructors tell me when I really pressed them on it that they know they use their right hand to "help" their partner feel a lead.
We all dance in the real world, mostly, after all.

Also, I would like to encourage you to make the "steps" and movements as small as possible. It can be almost more about the weight changes than the steps. (I'm not sure why, though. Following your/her center and her following yours?)

Wish we could be there to help out you and your partner!!!

 

[dchester]

Wanna be an "authentic" apilado leader?
(I'm kinda sorta kidding here, I know you are just figuring this out, but... And you know how much I love it, but also how frustrating it is.)
Seriously, the more you enable her by helping her with your right hand, the more she will rely on it, and the more you will, too.
I now believe that in the world of AT there is WAY more "helping" than we admit.
I've had more than one dedicated "apilado" instructors tell me when I really pressed them on it that they know they use their right hand to "help" their partner feel a lead.
We all dance in the real world, mostly, after all.

Also, I would like to encourage you to make the "steps" and movements as small as possible. It can be almost more about the weight changes than the steps. (I'm not sure why, though. Following your/her center and her following yours?)

Wish we could be there to help out you and your partner!!!

I've even heard a milonguero from Buenos Aires come right out and say that sometimes you have to use your hands to lead. He also said he didn't know where that myth about not using your hands came from.

 

[Steve Pastor]

The same place the don't push or pull your partner thing came from?

Seriously though, it IS possible. But it requires, as I seem to always say, a very real, very intense physical connection. And when I first felt it, I was hooked.

And what frustrates me is that the vast majority of people aren't trained to go there, or move away from it if they have been trained in it. Again, here in Portland, it seems to me, there has been a move away from this with one instructor teaching differently and one only giving privates. And you can't do this by your lonesome.

On one of the sites I have bookmarked, the author writes about something similar having happened in BA. That, of course, I can't verify.

I almost wish I'd never learned how it can feel and how it can work.
On the other hand, if I hadn't, I probably would have relegated AT to "just another couples dance", albeit a potentially cool one, years ago.
(Mario found and old post of mine, so he knows what I'm talkin' about.)

 

[dchester]

The same place the don't push or pull your partner thing came from?

Seriously though, it IS possible. But it requires, as I seem to always say, a very real, very intense physical connection. And when I first felt it, I was hooked.

And what frustrates me is that the vast majority of people aren't trained to go there, or move away from it if they have been trained in it. Again, here in Portland, it seems to me, there has been a move away from this with one instructor teaching differently and one only giving privates. And you can't do this by your lonesome.

On one of the sites I have bookmarked, the author writes about something similar having happened in BA. That, of course, I can't verify.

I almost wish I'd never learned how it can feel and how it can work.
On the other hand, if I hadn't, I probably would have relegated AT to "just another couples dance", albeit a potentially cool one, years ago.
(Mario found and old post of mine, so he knows what I'm talkin' about.)

FWIW, I'm not really advocating pushing and pulling. I was trying to (sort of) agree with (or lend support to) the section I bolded from your prior post. While I'm aware that leading without your hands (or arms) can be done, I'm questioning why it is (for some people) an absolute that it must never be done.

My current opinion is that the lead needs to have two attributes: clarity and comfort. I think that anyway you can get both of these done, should be acceptable (with the caveat that, what's clear and comfortable for one follower might be quite different from what's clear and comfortable for a different follower).

Sometimes I think people spend too much time trying to follow some rule (that may not even apply to the specific situation), than just trying to dance and enjoy the moment. No question though, if the lead is not both clear and comfortable for the follower, then something needs to change/improve.

 

[Angel HI]

So, I must add that at the beginning of the session, she 'naturally' went to a back cross instead of a front cross in the cortado part...

This was, no doubt, from her twisting/rotating the body w/o cause. It will throw the leg back every time. I, too, wish that we were there. I am certain that I/we could fix this for you.

Re using the hands, I believe I know the milonguero referred to before... I have heard the same thing. The issue is not to not use the hands... sometimes... rather, when you do, do so without digging fingers into her back, or pushing/pulling as was mentioned.

 

[Steve Pastor]

I'm questioning why it is (for some people) an absolute that it must never be done.

Note that I put authentic in quotes. That's my way of making it a disclaimer, which I think is fairly common.

We learn the "theory" of dance. We learn and practice "technique". When we take lessons we dance with some or someones who are learning the same things as we are.
Then we go out and dance with people who have taken lessons from someone else who may have a totally different emphasis about what they teach, don't teach, etc.

And we make it work as best we can.

When someone wants to dance "close embrace" with me I would much rather that I didn't have to hold them in place, that they recognized my "pulling away" from them as a request or lead that they step forward into me, that I didn't have to "help" them recognize that rotating my left should forward, my right shoulder back, combined with a movement of my center away from them was a lead for them to move their left leg in front of themselves as in the ocho cortado, etc etc (Same goes for open embrace, I guess)

I think it would be a wonderful world if all the women in Portland would take lessons in the apilado style for a year and a half, etc etc. If they would do this I probably wouldn't have to use my right hand or arm.

Ain't gonna happen.

All this having been written, I'd say that Mario is very serious about wanting to learn "close embrace" leaning towards apilado.
I am giving him the benefit of my year and a half of learning that style from a teacher whom I respect, and whose lessons have passed the real world test.

 

[JohnEm]

This was, no doubt, from her twisting/rotating the body w/o cause. It will throw the leg back every time. I, too, wish that we were there. I am certain that I/we could fix this for you.

Mario, there are two people in this partnership and each have to play their part even if technically you are leading.

Provided you have enough foot space between you by both of you maintaining your forward lean, in my experience when the free leg is thrown behind into a back cross in the Ocho Cortado it's because your partner is not allowing the free leg to close and/or not allowing it to be free and it is flying past the standing leg with clearance.

Does your partner understand the concept of the free leg and that her only role in managing that free leg is close it to the standing leg and not past it until its needed for another movement?

It's difficult to help in writing because there can be other reasons such as an unintentional lead by yourself.

 

[Mario7]

Provided you have enough foot space between you by both of you maintaining your forward lean, in my experience when the free leg is thrown behind into a back cross in the Ocho Cortado it's because your partner is not allowing the free leg to close and/or not allowing it to be free and it is flying past the standing leg with clearance.
Does your partner understand the concept of the free leg and that her only role in managing that free leg is close it to the standing leg and not past it until its needed for another movement?.

Yes, thank you..I noticed tension in the free leg and an intentional force when it moved...too much so. I told her and explained the looseness of the free leg from the hip....this was near the end of the session and may take a few reminders to sink in.... thanks for confirming this.

 

[bafonso]

The same place the don't push or pull your partner thing came from?

Seriously though, it IS possible. But it requires, as I seem to always say, a very real, very intense physical connection. And when I first felt it, I was hooked.

And what frustrates me is that the vast majority of people aren't trained to go there, or move away from it if they have been trained in it. Again, here in Portland, it seems to me, there has been a move away from this with one instructor teaching differently and one only giving privates. And you can't do this by your lonesome.

On one of the sites I have bookmarked, the author writes about something similar having happened in BA. That, of course, I can't verify.

I almost wish I'd never learned how it can feel and how it can work.
On the other hand, if I hadn't, I probably would have relegated AT to "just another couples dance", albeit a potentially cool one, years ago.
(Mario found and old post of mine, so he knows what I'm talkin' about.)

So true. I've found people that lots of followers that are very good dancers don't actually foster that training. They'd rather use the energy from embrace - which is still ok - instead of following the man's chest. It does feel amazing and once you've experienced it, you know it.