CORTANDO THE OCHO... heeelp!

[JohnEm]

Yes, and there are different opinions on whether the cross is led, or is automatic.

There's little point in going there again!

Acting like automatons, leaders or followers, is not the true tango.

 

[Subliminal]

Oh hey, another thread hijacked with what's the true nature of tango! Sweet!

If anyone needs me I'll be in the DA or F&I forums. :roll:

 

[dchester]

There's little point in going there again!

Acting like automatons, leaders or followers, is not the true tango.

There are lots of opinions of what true tango is.

Like I said before, some of us accept that their are different opinions/philosophies, and try to accommodate as many different possibilities as best we can.

That's why you don't see me making inflammatory posts about nuevo, (or other topics), nor will you see me claiming to be the authority on what is (or is not tango). I will from time to time express my preferences for certain things, but I'm not insisting that the way some teacher taught me is the one and only truth (or claiming a different opinion is not true tango).

 

[Steve Pastor]

I'd like to ask everyone for the earliest written description of Argentine Tango as an improvised dance. What ever that means.
Seriously, although I don't read Spanish and haven't looked at books from Argentina, just about every book I've seen referenced presents steps and patterns, and never mentions AT as being primarily improvisational. In other words, in print it seems to have always been presented the same way as other dances.

Anyone?

 

[bastet]

I'd like to ask everyone for the earliest written description of Argentine Tango as an improvised dance. What ever that means.
Seriously, although I don't read Spanish and haven't looked at books from Argentina, just about every book I've seen referenced presents steps and patterns, and never mentions AT as being primarily improvisational. In other words, in print it seems to have always been presented the same way as other dances.

Anyone?

Sure- I'll bite.

My own theory (just my own, mind you) is that patterns have been taught for all along. It's the only way I can account for the fact that most of the Argentine instructors I have ever had lessons from, tend to teach by pattern...the older they are the more "figure" oriented they have tended to be. In fact, the only Argentine instructor I have had who taught by what I call "concept" rather than pattern was Luciana Valle.

I'm not saying that every class I had was pattern and nothing else, but patterns (with or without additional underlying technique) do tend to get taught, even by Argentines.

Yes- I also believe that AT is improvisational in that we should be able to chop and change at any point, and also that the underlying elements tend to be much more incremental like single steps, weight changes, rotations on an axis rather than based on extended counts of memorized steps.

That's also not to say that things like the cross and ocho cortado don't get led so often that they get moved in to the realm of "everyone needs to know this", which means that some things like the cross, OC and ochos tend to get taught as a "pattern" for lack of a better word.

SO it is improvisationsal in that ochos are a general "element" of the dance, rather than part of some figure that only gets done when you do that particular figure, and sacadas are a general "element" of the dance that can be done whenever you've set it up correctly. Volcadas, ganchos and boleos are the same way; they are elements of the dance in general, not figures themselves.That's part of what makes it improvisational. But that doesn't mean that teachers don't use patterns to highlight the "elements", because they do, and that doesnt' mean people don't memorize, because they do, for better or worse.

 

[Mario7]

For the woman to execute an ocho or to step to her right across in front of her she has to twist her hips in the direction she's going.
Once she feels and comites herself to stepping in that direction the leader then moves his axis so that her feet come together into the cross.

OK, Bordertangoman's post is THE WINNING POST in this thread. :bkick:
It was reading this passage that got me to finally lead my partner thru the Ocho Cortado correctly and look like the real thing. Who knows that if I had read this on the first day, I may not have 'got' it..:headwall:..perhaps, it was all this polemic and all this trying that finally prepared me (and her) and I was finally ready...the thing is though, that the above paragraph was crystal clear and told me (and her) exactly the timing WHEN, what (and why) we needed to do. THANK YOU KIND SIR!! We did it!!!:friend:

 

[Mario7]

The Ocho Cortado is mainly a Milonguero thing, in fact Milongueros may find it hard to lead an Ocho ending of the rotating collect after the cut side step. They don't seem to do it, I'll have to look for it now..

In going over this interesting thread..I see (above) a better description of what I was saying about the cortado in videos of Old Guard BsAs Milonguero Milongas. It's the last part that they modify..according to my video watching anyway.

 

[bordertangoman]

OK, Bordertangoman's post is THE WINNING POST in this thread. :bkick:
It was reading this passage that got me to finally lead my partner thru the Ocho Cortado correctly and look like the real thing. Who knows that if I had read this on the first day, I may not have 'got' it..:headwall:..perhaps, it was all this polemic and all this trying that finally prepared me (and her) and I was finally ready...the thing is though, that the above paragraph was crystal clear and told me (and her) exactly the timing WHEN, what (and why) we needed to do. THANK YOU KIND SIR!! We did it!!!:friend:

jees I need to sit down...

well done Mario!