CORTANDO THE OCHO... heeelp!

[JohnEm]

I believe pedagogy is the right word... and it may indeed be an entirely new topic...

But if you go on the basis of those that purport that "Nuevo" does not mean a style, but a method of teaching. The basic idea (that I recall in classes I had with "Nuevo" teachers) is that it was broken down to the most basic idea that there are 3 steps (or positions) in tango that all others can be built from, a front cross, back cross and open step.
. . . . . . .

The relevance to this to the OC is that a front ocho ending and cross are the same thing (topologically) in that both of them leave the follows hips crossed to her partner if she were to leave her feet in place and try to turn. The main difference in whether a well trained follow takes one option versus the other being in how the leader is using his torso.

This is an apilado discussion and Neuvo analysis of the dance isn't relevant here. The nuevo group have a lot to answer for and even Chicho seems to be regretting some of what the group have done.

Ok, can't resist. To me Nuevo is mechanical and remote, apilado/milonguero is art and symbiotic co-operation.

And sticking with apilado and the OC, the rotating cross does not seem to require the partners' hips/pelvis to rotate away from facing each other.

End of conversation for me, I'm out of here. At least for the moment.

 

[bastet]

This is an apilado discussion and Neuvo analysis of the dance isn't relevant here. The nuevo group have a lot to answer for and even Chicho seems to be regretting some of what the group have done.

Ok, can't resist. To me Nuevo is mechanical and remote, apilado/milonguero is art and symbiotic co-operation.

And sticking with apilado and the OC, the rotating cross does not seem to require the partners' hips/pelvis to rotate away from facing each other.

End of conversation for me, I'm out of here. At least for the moment.

well- I'll say it one last time anyway...

I'm not actually talking about Nuevo the dance style but just the concept of how movement is bodily created, and what things are essentially the same even if they look different. A "Nuevo" teaching method can be applied to any style you dance, since it is only a way of thinking of how movement happens and not a dance style.

 

[tangonuevo]

...
Ok, can't resist. To me Nuevo is mechanical and remote, apilado/milonguero is art and symbiotic co-operation.

OMG. A troll. How expert are you at nuevo??! If you don't dance a mile in my shoes, how the he!! can you pretend to know what is mechanical and remote and what is art and co-operation?? I know you said "to me", but it felt like a gratuitously insulting remark in any event.

However the OC cross ending, the reason for this discussion, is a result of a 90deg anticlockwise turn into a collect from the sidestep.

No. This is not true. This is only one of many ways to lead the cross at the end of the OC. For example, after my follow's side step onto her left foot, I could, and sometimes do, lead the cross by planting my right foot and stepping left, overstepping her fixed right foot, leading her free leg (her left) to cross over her standing right foot. I.e., entirely lateral with no rotation. This is _especially_ easy if my partner insists on leaning on me since her free leg naturally would cross in front of her standing leg. Bottom line is that, IMO, there is no one way to do any of this tango stuff.

Okay. Sorry about the troll remark, but I do get so tired of insulting and belittling remarks made about nuevo, especially by people who don't get nuevo.

 

[JohnEm]

OMG. A troll. How expert are you at nuevo??! If you don't dance a mile in my shoes, how the he!! can you pretend to know what is mechanical and remote and what is art and co-operation?? I know you said "to me", but it felt like a gratuitously insulting remark in any event.



No. This is not true. This is only one of many ways to lead the cross at the end of the OC. For example, after my follow's side step onto her left foot, I could, and sometimes do, lead the cross by planting my right foot and stepping left, overstepping her fixed right foot, leading her free leg (her left) to cross over her standing right foot. I.e., entirely lateral with no rotation. This is _especially_ easy if my partner insists on leaning on me since her free leg naturally would cross in front of her standing leg. Bottom line is that, IMO, there is no one way to do any of this tango stuff.

Okay. Sorry about the troll remark, but I do get so tired of insulting and belittling remarks made about nuevo, especially by people who don't get nuevo.

So I'm a troll now? LoL!

If you were/are sorry why didn't you just delete the remark before posting, or quickly afterwards even? Frankly it's quite revealing.

The nuevo comments on this thread insist on putting nuevo methodology on a specific apilado movement that Mario is attempting to perfect with his partner. Hopefully he'll take no notice of you as it's confusion and irrelevance. All the various alternatives could occur later, hopefully out of thin air in the moment of the dance as a result of all that practising and resultant subliminal understanding.

I stand by that comparison remark. You're all full of mechanical analysis, full of moves, too much thinking, not enough feeling. It's like a computerised version of a dance, I save all that for non-dance problems off the dance floor.

And another thing . . . We don't even know what hold you are using? We do know that Mario is in an apilado embrace. Do you have any experience of that?

You're right, I don't dance in your shoes but I wouldn't want to. As for my experience, well I come from many swing and jive dances over some years and ballroom. Always loathed ballroom tango.
I started argentine tango with modern/nuevo/fantasia for a year or more before realising it wasn't really for me although I kept going alongside salon style for another year or or more in order to keep a dance partner happy. You may as well be learning two separate dances, well they are really. So have I enough credentials for you?

Its ok, you get Nuevo though I'm not sure what it is you can get. Perhaps it's the opportunity to show off and block the floor mixed up with flying around bullying everyone else off the floor. Oh, I'm sorry about that, but not sorry enough to delete it!

 

[bordertangoman]

This is an apilado discussion and Neuvo analysis of the dance isn't relevant here. The nuevo group have a lot to answer for and even Chicho seems to be regretting some of what the group have done.

Ok, can't resist. To me Nuevo is mechanical and remote, apilado/milonguero is art and symbiotic co-operation.

End of conversation for me, I'm out of here. At least for the moment.

Black Knight: Oh, oh, I see, running away then. You yellow bastard! Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!

Well I've no idea what you mean by crossed hips and not sure I want to know. There are enough sorts of crosses already in tango.
But there's no way I can see that the orientation of the hips/pelvis are the same for a cross and an ocho. However . . not sure that pursuing that discussion would have meaning or be helpful.

in close embrace, the OC movement if from the leaders right to left, around a shifting axis
(It is a shifting axis otherwise it would be a giro). For the woman to execute an ocho or to step to her right across in front of her she has to twist her hips in the direction she's going.
Once she feels and commite herself to stepping in that direction the leader then moves his axis so that her feet come together into the cross. I think that what is meant by crossed hips

 

[JohnEm]

Black Knight: Oh, oh, I see, running away then. You yellow bastard! Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!

First a troll, now a Yellow Bastard!!!!
Good job I can take it!

For the woman to execute an ocho or to step to her right across in front of her she has to twist her hips in the direction she's going.
Once she feels and commite herself to stepping in that direction the leader then moves his axis so that her feet come together into the cross. I think that what is meant by crossed hips

You know it's surprising how many ways people are taught or learn
for what is basically a simple dance which has evolved into something more complicated.

Have you ever learned a standing cross? It's done in-line and there is no individual twist of the hips. Many ladies misinterpret that, takeover & twist away into a forward ocho. The cross lead is very subtle, a lift signal for the collect and gentle small standing rotation together first clockwise lifting and then anti-clock maintaining the lift and a putting down into the cross. The lady feels the lead of her free leg to move across the foot into the cross. I know, I've felt it but it needs good technique from both partners - you know by now, tone, posture, hanging free leg etc. The hips don't move apart and maintaining the connection is vital.

The rotating lead into the (in-line) cross doesn't rotate the hips away from the partner at all either. Chest and hips stay facing each other while rotating as is the case in a rotating sidestep and the rotating collect into the cross in the OC. It's all quite distinct from a forward ocho which is almost defined by the necessary hip twist for the lady to one side of her partner.

I think we're thrashing this one to death!

 

[Dave Bailey]

Good grief, where'd all these posts come from?? It's like waiting for a bus in this place...

I will disagree with this. For a absolute beginner, I think that patterns are, for many, the only way to go.

I'm going to also have to disagree with you.

For me, the benefits of muscle memory from learning only patterns are mainly focussed on the patterns. If you only learn and work on patterns, then you get very good at patterns. Unfortunately Tango has nothing to do with patterns.

But if a woman has never seen a cross, leading it is waaaaay hard. A woman will generally, and rightfully so IMO, fight you.

Welll.... personally I think that the only thing you need to do is say "It's OK to cross your legs, and occasionally you may be led to do so - in that case, follow the lead".

I don't think you need to spend hours simply getting used to the 8CB simply to get used to the feeling of being led into a cross. And if you do, then you'll only learn to cross as part of that pattern, not as a discrete step.

whereas Salon/Milonguero/Apilado (whatever) teaches and requires that if the leader steps outside the follower just keeps on walking.

As I understand it, it doesn't matter where the leader steps - in any style. What matters is where his chest is going. A nice exercise for leaders is to dissociate the lead totally (mainly by relaxing the embrace and keeping the chest focussed on the follower), and walk around a bit whilst keeping the follower in place, and then re-establish the lead and do the same walking around, but with the follower following the movements.

 

[Dave Bailey]

A challenge to you. Find someone who has never even seen tango, is clueless about it, and lead him to the cross. Then, without showing the person a cross or telling him what it is, explain the technique that he should follow with so that you can lead the cross.

These are very hard and I believe that most will fail or quit in frustration.

Sounds like a good plan. I have a large pool of non-Tango dancers, with whom I regularly dance tango, so I'll try that on a few of them this week.

 

[JohnEm]

As I understand it, it doesn't matter where the leader steps - in any style. What matters is where his chest is going. A nice exercise for leaders is to dissociate the lead totally (mainly by relaxing the embrace and keeping the chest focussed on the follower), and walk around a bit whilst keeping the follower in place, and then re-establish the lead and do the same walking around, but with the follower following the movements.

The exercise seems an interesting one. Also try leading without physical connection, leading from the chest with the follower focussing her eyes on your chest and keeping hers completely in front of yours. Quite demanding!


But as the 8CBwDB is taught, and I learned it too, people (both partners) learn a pattern. It's made worse by a V-shape, connected on the closed side, open on the open side! Both looking at the hands exaggerates it which is what I first learned. In that pose, with the lady sort walking diagonally, I can understand how she feels the need to cross once the man has stepped outside as she's probably quite awkwardly skewed and wants to return to a more comfortable position.

Alberto Paz even writes about this and he and Valerie don't look at their hands so the angle isn't as great. It's another reason for not learning the Basic8/8CB. And I don't think that the lady looking to the right establishes a good, comfortable connected embrace.

So we are in agreement, ladies should only cross when lead and not by rote or by learned pattern! If in doubt, just walk!

 

[dchester]

So we are in agreement, ladies should only cross when lead and not by rote or by learned pattern! If in doubt, just walk!

On the other hand, some of us accept that their are different opinions/philosophies on things like the cross, and try to accommodate as many different possibilities as best we can (rather than insisting that the way some teacher taught me is the one and only truth).

 

[JohnEm]

On the other hand, some of us accept that their are different opinions/philosophies on things like the cross, and try to accommodate as many different possibilities as best we can (rather than insisting that the way some teacher taught me is the one and only truth).

Excuse me, I'd never ever indicated otherwise. In fact the more classes you attend the more you realise there's no end to the variations. And I've seen teachers teach three different cross leads in three consecutive terms, each as the way. You have to find your own way.

I've given earlier three different ways of leading the cross
and even pointed out that the lead has to change if your partner
doesn't respond. There are ladies I dance with who cannot feel the
gentle rotating lead at all and you have to adapt the lead accordingly.
They also cannot feel the ending of the OC.

However watching both teachers and milonguero videos there's little doubt that the most consistently favoured lead in the embrace is a gentle but definite rotating one. It fits in with the whole feel of the dance and the concept of the free leg. But you must do what you feel is appropriate to you. This thread is about help for the OC and that clearly entails a rotating lead.

 

[dchester]

Excuse me, I'd never ever indicated otherwise. In fact the more you classes you attend the more you realise there's no end to the variations. And I've seen teachers teach three different cross leads in three consecutive terms, each as the way. You have to find your own way.

I've given earlier three different ways of leading the cross
and even pointed out that the lead has to change if your partner
doesn't respond. There are ladies I dance with who cannot feel the
gentle rotating lead at all and you to adapt the lead accordingly.
They also cannot feel the ending of the OC.

However watching both teachers and milonguero videos there's little doubt that the most consistently favoured lead in the embrace is a gentle but definite rotating one. It fits in with the whole feel of the dance and the concept of the free leg. But you must do what you feel is appropriate to you. This thread is about help for the OC and that clearly entails a rotating lead.

OK, I guess I misunderstood your prior post that I quoted. It didn't sound like there was any flexibility (or accepting of other opinions) in what you said. My error. Here it is again.

So we are in agreement, ladies should only cross when lead and not by rote or by learned pattern! If in doubt, just walk!

 

[tangonuevo]

...
I stand by that comparison remark. You're all full of mechanical analysis, full of moves, too much thinking, not enough feeling. It's like a computerised version of a dance, I save all that for non-dance problems off the dance floor.

Demonization works. One of history's many lessons. You literally have no clue about my dancing, how I'm feeling or how my partner is feeling, yet you are willing to make such blanket remarks about "you're all blah blah".

...
And another thing . . . We don't even know what hold you are using?

Actually, I suspect that most on this board know that I have spent an exceedingly large amount of time taking privates with one of the best of the close embrace dancers in the US, one who his been, and continues to be, an invited teacher at the biggest of the close embrace festivals in the US, for example the Denver festival. I have also put in well over 1000 hours (easy arithmetic) dancing close embrace.

With respect to neuvo, certainly another 1000 hours on the floor and lessons from the famous and the not so famous.

BTW, I also teach and dance swing (Lindy hop) have competed successfully on a national level (3rd place in a US national championship) and have had one of the couples I taught take first place in a US national championship.

... Perhaps it's the opportunity to show off and block the floor mixed up with flying around bullying everyone else off the floor...

Nice.

 

[JohnEm]

OK, I guess I misunderstood your prior post that I quoted. It didn't sound like there was any flexibility (or accepting of other opinions) in what you said. My error. Here it is again.

No problem.

Actually that quote was about following, not leading the cross!

 

[dchester]

No problem.

Actually that quote was about following, not leading the cross!

Yes, and there are different opinions on whether the cross is led, or is automatic.