Dancing and Economics, new trend emerging?

[DanceMentor]

I know throughout history, there have been some interesting correlations drawn about dancing and economic trends. For example during the depths of world war 2, ballroom dancing was coming into vogue, or during the recessions of the '70s, the disco scene popped up. Or perhaps some might say that after the AIDS crisis was abating somewhat, people went back out to the clubs and there was a swing dance resurgence (and people went back to the dance studios too). I'd love to hear your ideas about this and perhaps more examples of how dancing correlates or does not correlate with economic trends.

What made me think about this is I was at a nightclub pretty close to the beach on Wednesday night, and the theme was Salsa and Bachata. The club was absolutely packed with people wanting to learn how to dance. There were tons of beginners. It was like deja vu. I had been transported back to the late 90s and everyone was wanting to learn how to swing dance and the club was full of beginners.

Now this is just one experience, but I really feel like this covid crisis is getting a lot more closure now, and people have been cooped up and they are ready to get out and dance again. We are going to see one of the biggest dance trends we've seen in a long time, perhaps the biggest in our lifetimes. That's what I project and I'm wondering if you agree.

 

[Brummbaer]

Maybe. Is the glass half-full or half-empty for partner, or any dance?

I'd disagree. Dancing has become expensive relative to spare income. Venues cost more to hire, and want to recoup their losses, so you need more people and/or put up your prices. The teacher's costs have risen, so they'd like a pay rise. And then there are more scrabbling for the same market, putting some venues under threat. It's also costing a lot more to travel there. And then we get to the 'equipment'. Recently a dance shoe retailer nearby has decided to give up. The reason: Brexit. Can't get shoes imported from manufacturers in the EU in time, and costs have risen to become uneconomic. Personally we're choosing carefully where we spend our money on lessons and socials for the return we get.

Because of COVID, some without a partner dropped out. Some are re-appearing, but reticent. And Covid infections are rising again, although it's difficult to predict the impact.

Yes, there are some new couples, but fewer new solos.

Coincidentally, I also just read a 'culture guide' on the dance scene in London - describing 'beleagured nightclubs'. A 6,000 capacity venue (Printworks) is closing down along with a 200 capacity venue (Space 289). In the latter case a US bank has bought it and wants to more than double the rent.

Covid isn't considered the reason for their closure. The article goes on:
Clubs have been dropping like flies since long before the pandemic. Between 2005 and 2015, the number of nightclubs in the UK reportedly halved. Now it seems audiences are dwindling too. Since the stilted return to dancefloors after 18 months of lockdown, promoters have been in dire straits, facing poor sales and low turnout. No one wants to be the first to say their party isn’t selling, but ask around privately and the mood is grim.

I don't think dance has the pull now that it did in the time periods you refer to. It was then a tradition. What do we have now? Strictly/DWTS - and that's armchair 'entertainment'. The biggest attractions there are injury, the relationship with the pro, or breakup of their personal relationship. Little inducement to participate in dance.

I'd happily go and dance al fresco - given a suitable floor and music, but it still costs someone to setup. We've just had a 2-day heatwave with 40+°C (104 in your units) - too hot without aircon. Today it's down to 19°C (~66°F) and raining. 'Public' spaces for dancing are limited, or restrictions apply.

So, sadly, I'll disagree, but hope I'm wrong.

 

[DanceMentor]

Maybe. Is the glass half-full or half-empty for partner, or any dance?

I'd disagree. Dancing has become expensive relative to spare income. Venues cost more to hire, and want to recoup their losses, so you need more people and/or put up your prices. The teacher's costs have risen, so they'd like a pay rise. And then there are more scrabbling for the same market, putting some venues under threat. It's also costing a lot more to travel there. And then we get to the 'equipment'. Recently a dance shoe retailer nearby has decided to give up. The reason: Brexit. Can't get shoes imported from manufacturers in the EU in time, and costs have risen to become uneconomic. Personally we're choosing carefully where we spend our money on lessons and socials for the return we get.

Because of COVID, some without a partner dropped out. Some are re-appearing, but reticent. And Covid infections are rising again, although it's difficult to predict the impact.

Yes, there are some new couples, but fewer new solos.

Coincidentally, I also just read a 'culture guide' on the dance scene in London - describing 'beleagured nightclubs'. A 6,000 capacity venue (Printworks) is closing down along with a 200 capacity venue (Space 289). In the latter case a US bank has bought it and wants to more than double the rent.

Covid isn't considered the reason for their closure. The article goes on:
Clubs have been dropping like flies since long before the pandemic. Between 2005 and 2015, the number of nightclubs in the UK reportedly halved. Now it seems audiences are dwindling too. Since the stilted return to dancefloors after 18 months of lockdown, promoters have been in dire straits, facing poor sales and low turnout. No one wants to be the first to say their party isn’t selling, but ask around privately and the mood is grim.

I don't think dance has the pull now that it did in the time periods you refer to. It was then a tradition. What do we have now? Strictly/DWTS - and that's armchair 'entertainment'. The biggest attractions there are injury, the relationship with the pro, or breakup of their personal relationship. Little inducement to participate in dance.

I'd happily go and dance al fresco - given a suitable floor and music, but it still costs someone to setup. We've just had a 2-day heatwave with 40+°C (104 in your units) - too hot without aircon. Today it's down to 19°C (~66°F) and raining. 'Public' spaces for dancing are limited, or restrictions apply.

So, sadly, I'll disagree, but hope I'm wrong.

I'm seeing packed venues in my local area for swing, and salsa and bachata. I agree with you that ballroom dancing got too expensive and it's mostly just a sport of the wealthy now.

But if there becomes a strong social scene again, especially the type that brings in new dancers, those dances will filter out among many different scenes.

And maybe I'm speaking prematurely, but what I'm seeing in my area is amazing, and I feel like it has a momentum to really bring things to new heights like I haven't seen in a long time.

As for covid, they're definitely is some unpredictability there. The cases are up, but it seems very routine now that people just stay home for a few days and then head right back out. I'm not hearing about people having serious cases although I'm sure there are still a few. I guess just from the sociology perspective, people are not fearing it and they're going back out again. And I sense a lot of pent up desire to get back out there. It's coming.

 

[Brummbaer]

I agree with you that ballroom dancing got too expensive and it's mostly just a sport of the wealthy now.

I'll agree with you about ballroom from what I read, but I turned to the dark side of social AT some time ago - still a niche market. That's where my comments apply. I was trying to be more general, and failing. But I like the concept of ballroom as a sport for the wealthy

Re Covid - yes, I guess there was optimism. The UK, looking at increasing infections, is recommending a further booster after summer for 50+. Problem is that the mutations are getting around those vaccines, and although targeted vaccines are in development, they're not approved yet. Maybe it will be ok.

It's a mixed perception of the scene at the moment. Too early to draw conclusions. Economics and events could force other priorities. Dancing isn't a priority if you can't afford to keep warm (winter looms) or cook a meal (which is the case for too many), or travel (rising fuel costs). Maslow's needs must be satisfied first. If they are, then I guess dance as a social meeting is a consideration. It will depend where you are. And that scenario is a factor in how AT developed.

 

[DoWrongRight]

Interesting topic. I wonder if in the previous times mentioned by @DanceMentor the people dancing were paying instructors to learn to dance or it was more of a social learning environment. I know in my area there are lots of opportunities to dance Salsa or other "latin" dance styles. On any given weekend you can find several events to go to. Most are free or a low cover charge and all feature some kind of intro lesson. There are enough people that know how to dance that show up that keeps the beginners entertained. I don't know how many of the beginners then actually seek out dance lessons. A group of folks are also trying to begin hosting monthly ballroom socials. The cover charge is low, there is no lesson, and from what I have seen it is a niche group that shows up.

I would say that there could be a pent up desire to get out and do something different, aka dance. But at the same time the economic situation and realities of dance lessons @Brummbaer mentions exist. Does dance need dance lessons to survive? Taking dance lessons is certainly an expensive hobby; there are loads of expensive hobbies in the world. The costs of entering or staying in these hobbies ebb and flow over time with the economic conditions of the time. Perhaps dance, without dance lessons, increases in down swings because that form of dance is cheap and fun entertainment. I would guess the dance lesson part of the dance community, may not suffer because there are always people willing to fork over money, but some people get priced out of the market.

From what I have seen going to random dance events, as someone who takes dance lessons, I can find partners to dance with easily. A lot of to dance at the low cost of nothing and I get to put skills I have paid to learn to use. There is a breaking point for myself and dance lessons though; the funds are not infinite and at the end of the day the entertainment budget gets cut first.

 

[DanceMentor]

Interesting topic. I wonder if in the previous times mentioned by @DanceMentor the people dancing were paying instructors to learn to dance or it was more of a social learning environment. I know in my area there are lots of opportunities to dance Salsa or other "latin" dance styles. On any given weekend you can find several events to go to. Most are free or a low cover charge and all feature some kind of intro lesson. There are enough people that know how to dance that show up that keeps the beginners entertained. I don't know how many of the beginners then actually seek out dance lessons. A group of folks are also trying to begin hosting monthly ballroom socials. The cover charge is low, there is no lesson, and from what I have seen it is a niche group that shows up.

I would say that there could be a pent up desire to get out and do something different, aka dance. But at the same time the economic situation and realities of dance lessons @Brummbaer mentions exist. Does dance need dance lessons to survive? Taking dance lessons is certainly an expensive hobby; there are loads of expensive hobbies in the world. The costs of entering or staying in these hobbies ebb and flow over time with the economic conditions of the time. Perhaps dance, without dance lessons, increases in down swings because that form of dance is cheap and fun entertainment. I would guess the dance lesson part of the dance community, may not suffer because there are always people willing to fork over money, but some people get priced out of the market.

From what I have seen going to random dance events, as someone who takes dance lessons, I can find partners to dance with easily. A lot of to dance at the low cost of nothing and I get to put skills I have paid to learn to use. There is a breaking point for myself and dance lessons though; the funds are not infinite and at the end of the day the entertainment budget gets cut first.

Right, because dance lessons are so expensive, people during covid spend a lot of time watching dance lessons online cheaply or for free. And now venues are starting to pop up where people can go dancing inexpensively. They don't need the dance studios. Ultimately some of those people will surely wind up in the dance studios, but for now people are getting back out and dancing and it's a great thing to see.

But I find it kind of interesting to consider the possibility that people don't need to pay for expensive dance lessons. Maybe they won't become a champion and maybe they don't want to become a champion.

Maybe they just want to have fun. Maybe that's what rule number one in dancing really is, to have fun. It's really great to see people having fun.

Thinking back at some of the dance studios I've attended over the last several years, the pure fun part wasn't always there. I'm not going to say that people didn't get something out of working really hard to become a great dancer, just the pure fun through sheer going out there and moving your body and mingling with other people was somehow absent.

Dancing maybe coming back around to the basics again, rule number one, having fun, mixing and mingling, seeing people and being seen, not worrying about who's the best, just moving to the rhythm almost in a trance of pure joy.

 

[Brummbaer]

I wonder if in the previous times mentioned by @DanceMentor the people dancing were paying instructors to learn to dance or it was more of a social learning environment. I know in my area there are lots of opportunities to dance Salsa or other "latin" dance styles. On any given weekend you can find several events to go to. Most are free or a low cover charge and all feature some kind of intro lesson.

because dance lessons are so expensive, people during covid spend a lot of time watching dance lessons online cheaply or for free. And now venues are starting to pop up where people can go dancing inexpensively

Interesting thoughts. Of course, way back at the end of the 19th century/early 20th when AT was evolving it was 'social', initially single sex, and developed into the (free/low cost?) community practica to get the skills to impress the opposite sex. So there's certainly precedent. And I guess similar would have applied to the vals-type dance in its homeland with the dancing-master reserved for those who could afford. Maybe YT has provided some of that in the 21st century.

Cheap venues (community/village/church halls) could be obtained relatively cheaply pre-Covid, but much more difficult now. They also tend to require such things as insurance. Raves certainly have a history of finding the empty barn or derelict warehouse without many of those costs.

Interesting to consider that AT has a myth** of being hard to learn, but actually evolved in those poorer conditions until it took off in Paris years later. And, of course, the differences between ballroom AT and social AT. It's also interesting to view AT performed by professional dancers to more modern music, as in this thread. My experience elsewhere has been that this type of approach has been productive initially in encouraging new dancers, but ultimately destructive in making it too technical - a variant of Piazzolla - the tango killer (people stopped dancing themselves to listen). In some ways it surprises me that social AT continues.

So, maybe, if people are allowed to get back to basics again, and there's somewhere suitable to dance, there's some hope.


** The basics aren't difficult. I've seen complete novice families learn sufficient to just enjoy themselves dancing with a partner within an hour in a free public lesson.

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

I like the concept of ballroom as a sport for the wealthy

Is Pro Am becoming a sport of only the wealthy?

I know that I am stretching it to do pro am... lessons, coachings, costumes, competitions add up to a lot in one year. As I continue to do this I am discovering that what I spend is minimal compared to other competitors out there...who do multiple styles, comps every month, new dresses every...

www.dance-forums.com

 

[kckc]

Studio just had a summer showcase event. Very large turnout, everyone had a good time. Annnd....I am now on my 3rd day of Covid, mild-to-moderate symptoms. One of the owners has it also. And another friend who wasn't even there has it. And so on. It is definitely out there again people.

As for the economics, yes that is a big part of it. But upthread someone mentioned that they could always find a dance partner easily. Even before covid, Saturday night socials were becoming less and less frequent for me. Why? Because of the lack of partners. There were more and more couples coming in, but the few solo men that would show up sat around griping about how politics and how oppressed they are. And the women sat because there were no men to dance with, skilled or not skilled. There was no use in going any more and I haven't since they re-opened, other than lessons and occasional events like the one mentioned above.

In the past, there would be organic lesson groups pop up at churches/YMCAs/community centers etc (as was also discussed upthread) and those were always very popular. However, when the venues saw how popular, they would start to micro-manage everything and the inevitable decline started. Many of the people at those lessons still dance but newer younger participants at studios? I doubt it. I wish I knew what the answer is.

 

[Brummbaer]

the few solo men that would show up sat around griping about how politics and how oppressed they are.

And the women sat because there were no men to dance with

Dance is meant to be social, but you then come across the age issues, and the ability to partner up for a dance despite your personal relationship status. One scene may be mainly retirees; another younger folk. Sometimes/usually different motivations; and sometimes they can mix.

I wish I knew what the answer is.

What got us into dance initially was the social aspect, and an interest in the technicalities. What attracted us to AT, almost 40 years later, was actually seeing people dance together and saying: How did they do (improvise) that?

Of course everyone's experience will be different, but I'm inclined to the view that you need to see something in real life (not on your phone or some streamed broadcast).

I suppose that's similar to the rave where you go with mates. You don't really get that social experience on first entry to a dance studio, unless you already have a partner.

Commiserations about the Covid. There is still a lot about and tend to feel catching it again is almost inevitable unless some better strategies emerge. Hope it doesn't prove too serious.

 

[DanceMentor]

Commiserations about the Covid. There is still a lot about and tend to feel catching it again is almost inevitable unless some better strategies emerge. Hope it doesn't prove too serious.

The difference now is few people are getting extremely sick. For most people have just a cold, or even completely asymptomatic. People are getting covid, but not only are they not getting very sick, they are not hearing stories of their friends getting very sick either. People are starting to feel confident they can go out again and there's a lot of pent up loneliness and just desire to go experience life again and I think we're in the midst of seeing something pretty wonderful starting to emerge.

 

[raindance]

The difference now is few people are getting extremely sick. For most people have just a cold, or even completely asymptomatic. People are getting covid, but not only are they not getting very sick, they are not hearing stories of their friends getting very sick either. People are starting to feel confident they can go out again and there's a lot of pent up loneliness and just desire to go experience life again and I think we're in the midst of seeing something pretty wonderful starting to emerge.

On the one hand, this is true. On the other hand, hundreds of people are still dying per day, it was over 3,000 last week. Some people are still vulnerable, even if vaccinated. Some people aren't sure if they are vulnerable, even if vaccinated (age, medical conditions, etc). Some people still really don't want to risk long covid. Some people have friends who have been infected multiple times just this year and don't want that for themself. Some people are caring for elders or other vulnerable populations, etc.

So, yes, a lot more people are getting out there and doing more things in groups, things like social dancing. And yet there are still plenty of other people wearing masks on errands and avoiding large gatherings either during surges (we're in one) or in general. You won't see those people at the large gatherings, of course, so you don't know that they're missing. But as has always been the case with Covid, experiences, individual risk, and reactions to risk and whatnot vary a lot. Some people are partying like it's 2019. And some people are really not ready for that.

Obviously anyone remembering my previous posts on DF will guess which end of the spectrum I'm on. But I have plenty of friends and coworkers who are lower risk than my household, are vaccinated, and are still being careful for now.

 

[Brummbaer]

People are getting covid, but not only are they not getting very sick, they are not hearing stories of their friends getting very sick either.

Sadly, some are getting quite sick, and the WhatsApp group usually has someone who's sick with COVID - sometimes quite badly. But vaccines have so far been pretty effective. There's a small number who take longer to recover. And that's with vaccination and all the boosters. We're now getting the next mutations. The situation is better, but not yet ready for partying like pre-2019. Obviously there are many out there who think it's all over, or it was all a con, or couldn't care less.

Interestingly, on the economic topic, that does have an impact with staff availability for transport and the like. Just can't rely on some scheduled transport being on-time due to staff shortages due to illness.

 

[kckc]

Other than work, I haven't been around people much. I work in a hospital laboratory, so people are masked all the time but I guess I could have picked it up there. I haven't socialized much and I despise going to the grocery store these days, those I have noticed more people masking. Thing is, I go in, keep away from people as much as possible, and get out as quick as possible, masked or not. My gym could be a possibility but I've only been using the pool, and have zero contact with anyone. It is so hard to know where it came from but I am hearing more and more names from the aforementioned dance showcase.

 

[DanceMentor]

Sadly, some are getting quite sick, and the WhatsApp group usually has someone who's sick with COVID - sometimes quite badly. But vaccines have so far been pretty effective. There's a small number who take longer to recover. And that's with vaccination and all the boosters. We're now getting the next mutations. The situation is better, but not yet ready for partying like pre-2019. Obviously there are many out there who think it's all over, or it was all a con, or couldn't care less.

Interestingly, on the economic topic, that does have an impact with staff availability for transport and the like. Just can't rely on some scheduled transport being on-time due to staff shortages due to illness.

I understand you. I'm more commenting on this from a sociological perspective. This is how many people are feeling now. They are back out and feeling like things are going in the right direction now.

Personally, I feel the death rate is going to continue to be a little higher than it was pre-covid, but not a lot higher. People that are vaccinated and not in a high risk of a group are likely to move forward with normal activities, and I think they are doing so with enthusiasm these days. That's not all a bad thing.