Dancing Tango to Milonga and Vals

[bastet]

This seems like unusual advice to me. Dancing on 1 only is certainly the most common. I would say that using 1-3 is the normal other rhythm. I would not think that leaders use 12- very much at all, if ever.

Actually, thisis how I was generally taught vals timing. Use 12-1 for a substitute for qqs timing. The 1-31 is used less, most of thime it gets used is at the very end of a phrase or song because a lot of vals ends as 1-31, but in general during the musical phrase itself, it seems to make more sense to use 12-1 for movements that you would have used qqs for in tango. Just mentally go over the footwork for ocho cortado and the movement makes a lot more sense done 12-1 than 1-31. Not to say it can't be done, but if you review the ladies footwork it is more comfortably led as 12-1, IMO, at least.

 

[AndaBien]

Actually, thisis how I was generally taught vals timing. Use 12-1 for a substitute for qqs timing. The 1-31 is used less, most of thime it gets used is at the very end of a phrase or song because a lot of vals ends as 1-31, but in general during the musical phrase itself, it seems to make more sense to use 12-1 for movements that you would have used qqs for in tango. Just mentally go over the footwork for ocho cortado and the movement makes a lot more sense done 12-1 than 1-31. Not to say it can't be done, but if you review the ladies footwork it is more comfortably led as 12-1, IMO, at least.

What I'm counting in this video is her doing cruzadas using 1-31. Her molinets (some of them) seem to also be on 3,1 rather than on 1,2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgJS7UYeBbE

 

[Subliminal]

What I'm counting in this video is her doing cruzadas using 1-31. Her molinets (some of them) seem to also be on 3,1 rather than on 1,2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgJS7UYeBbE

That song has a VERY strong 3-1 emphasis. I'm not sure what it proves other than both of them are very musical.

ETA: One of the "advanced" exercises one of my teachers gave me was to lead a 1-2 and a 3-1 timing in the right turn (close embrace). With an advanced follower, it's more about letting her feel the timing you are going for. For the original poster, this is something to work toward.

 

[dchester]

My opinions on many of the things in this thread are closest to OpenDoor and UKDancer.

The first thing I'll say is that while the steps is vals are more or less the same as in tango, the emotion, feel, or whatever you want to call it, is quite different from tango, thus I don't consider them the same.

As for the rhythm of Vals, I actually feel it as 12/8 (somewhat similar to how I feel tango in groups of 4 slow beats). It's basically two 6/8 measures joined together.

In vals the 1 beat is the slow beat, but there are two quick beats (2 & 3) in between each slow beat.

123 123 123 123

or if you count on the slow beats, the way that I do (12/8 time, or 4 triplets)
123 223 323 423


There are three main options for using the quick beats:
1) As already has been mentioned, use the 2 beat and skip the 3 beat.
ex: 12- 1-- 12- 1--
(somewhat similar to quick-quick-slow in tango)

2) Another option pretty much as common is to use the 3 beat and skip the 2 beat.
ex: 1-3 1-- 1-3 1--
(again, somewhat similar to quick-quick-slow in tango)

3) use the 2 and the 3 beat.
ex: 123 1-- 123 1--
(No good comparison to a tango rhythm)


I use all 3 of these (depending on my mood), but the 1st and 2nd options I use way more than the 3rd one.

 

[Subliminal]

My opinions on many of the things in this thread are closest to OpenDoor and UKDancer.

The first thing I'll say is that while the steps is vals are more or less the same as in tango, the emotion, feel, or whatever you want to call it, is quite different from tango, thus I don't consider them the same.

As for the rhythm of Vals, I actually feel it as 12/8 (somewhat similar to how I feel tango in groups of 4 slow beats). It's basically two 6/8 measures joined together.

In vals the 1 beat is the slow beat, but there are two quick beats (2 & 3) in between each slow beat.

123 123 123 123

or if you count on the slow beats, the way that I do (12/8 time, or 4 triplets)
123 223 323 423


There are three main options for using the quick beats:
1) As already has been mentioned, use the 2 beat and skip the 3 beat.
ex: 12- 1-- 12- 1--
(somewhat similar to quick-quick-slow in tango)

2) Another option pretty much as common is to use the 3 beat and skip the 2 beat.
ex: 1-3 1-- 1-3 1--
(again, somewhat similar to quick-quick-slow in tango)

3) use the 2 and the 3 beat.
ex: 123 1-- 123 1--
(No good comparison to a tango rhythm)


I use all 3 of these (depending on my mood), but the 1st and 2nd options I use way more than the 3rd one.

Well said.

Oh, that just reminded me! I remember a beginner pattern I learned in a class to help feel vals phrasing. It's kind of like...

123 223 323 423

So... daaahhh daaahhh daah, da daaaa. Daaahhh daaahhh daah, da daaaa. etc.

 

[AndaBien]

...In vals the 1 beat is the slow beat, but there are two quick beats (2 & 3) in between each slow beat...

The 1 beat is normally stronger, more emphatic, but it is not slower than the other beats. All beats have the same duration.

...There are three main options for using the quick beats:
1) As already has been mentioned, use the 2 beat and skip the 3 beat.
ex: 12- 1-- 12- 1--
(somewhat similar to quick-quick-slow in tango)

2) Another option pretty much as common is to use the 3 beat and skip the 2 beat.
ex: 1-3 1-- 1-3 1--
(again, somewhat similar to quick-quick-slow in tango)

3) use the 2 and the 3 beat.
ex: 123 1-- 123 1--
(No good comparison to a tango rhythm)

I use all 3 of these (depending on my mood), but the 1st and 2nd options I use way more than the 3rd one.

As I think and observe:

1) Only dance on 1: most common.
2) 1-3: for me it's also common, I'll have to notice if it's the same for other leaders.
3)123: I use it some times, and I think other leaders do also.
4) 12-: I rarely do it and I rarely notice other leaders doing it.

 

[AndaBien]

...So... daaahhh daaahhh daah, da daaaa. Daaahhh daaahhh daah, da daaaa. etc.

I'm having some trouble counting your As and Hs.

 

[Subliminal]

Steps fall on these beats:

One, one, one three one. Repeat.

 

[bordertangoman]

On the giros; after the back pivot and step; it is possible to do the subsequent side-forward to arrive on the forward on the 1; so its 2-1 or 3-1

 

[Hock Siew]

I'm not clear what you mean by this.

Vals IS just dancing tango, but you do it to 3/4 rhythm. As Peaches mentioned, there is normally a styling difference with more fluidity and circular movement. The music will usually inspire you to the fluid nature. Practice your turns and dance on the beat, and you've got it.

Milonga IS just dancing tango, but you dance on every beat - no pauses. Again, it has a different character. It's more about rhythmic movement, but often the music will encourage this anyway. You don't neeed to use traspies, just hit each beat.

Go for it. You'll develop the feel for them by doing them. Let yourself be moved by the music and hit the beats.

Thanks for your post. I`m sorry I didn`t make it clear what I was saying. I am actually trying to understand and somehow achieve what you are describing for the Vals and Milonga and also what Opendoor said. I think I still have someway to go yet. However, thanks for your encouragement! I will keep trying

 

[opendoor]

TangoTherapist blogged on the vals feeling. http://tango-beat.blogspot.com/2011/11/music-workshop-thinking-in-six.html

 

[Hock Siew]

Suggestion for vals: listen for the 123 123 pulse of the music and then just step/move on 1. Vals has quite a slow heartbeat. If you feel moved to move more quickly, use beats 1 & 2, but let 3 go by. Rotation is at the heart of vals, so turn as much as you can, but make sure that the rotation is coming from the body and not the feet.

This seems like unusual advice to me. Dancing on 1 only is certainly the most common. I would say that using 1-3 is the normal other rhythm. I would not think that leaders use 12- very much at all, if ever.

i've heard the skip '3' advice before, and seems to fit nicely for vals. it goes 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3... and if I step 1&2, I can follow it up by stepping on 3, or not, but it will always feel better to step on the following 1, so I can either step 1&23 1..., or I can step 1&2-1... the latter is less likely to feel like too many steps or rushed. You are right that dancing on 1 is common, which is really why holding 3 is needed in this instance.

Thanks for all the feedback I can understand that we normally step on the first beat and generally use up the rest of the bar. However, the first time I attended a workshop where the instructor wanted us to step faster, I thought that he wanted us to step on every beat of that bar. I tried to do so but found that it was impossibly fast for me. When I observed him again, I realised that he meant for us to take two steps in that first bar and the third step for the whole of the next bar. But I was not sure whether he wanted us to step evenly on the two "quick" steps (i.e. the first step on the first one and a half beats of the bar and the second step on the remaining one and a half beats), or to step on the "1" and "2" of the bar (skipping the "3"), or to step on the "1" and "3" (skipping the "2" instead)

Is it our choice? Do dancers choose their option based on their own interpretation of the dance and of the music? Sorry, I am still finding it a bit confusing

But thanks again for all your responses

 

[bordertangoman]

Thanks for all the feedback I can understand that we normally step on the first beat and generally use up the rest of the bar. However, the first time I attended a workshop where the instructor wanted us to step faster, I thought that he wanted us to step on every beat of that bar. I tried to do so but found that it was impossibly fast for me. When I observed him again, I realised that he meant for us to take two steps in that first bar and the third step for the whole of the next bar. But I was not sure whether he wanted us to step evenly on the two "quick" steps (i.e. the first step on the first one and a half beats of the bar and the second step on the remaining one and a half beats), or to step on the "1" and "2" of the bar (skipping the "3"), or to step on the "1" and "3" (skipping the "2" instead)

Is it our choice? Do dancers choose their option based on their own interpretation of the dance and of the music? Sorry, I am still finding it a bit confusing

But thanks again for all your responses

yes of course its optional. i loved vals when i was a beginner because you had so much more time just stepping on the one, and vals loves ochos, and giros. If its too fast for you; then dance what you can at the milonga.

I danced to this recently; its completely mad and his singing gets faster and faster...!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSSp6DyTFW4

 

[Hock Siew]

There are three main options for using the quick beats:
1) As already has been mentioned, use the 2 beat and skip the 3 beat.
ex: 12- 1-- 12- 1--
(somewhat similar to quick-quick-slow in tango)

2) Another option pretty much as common is to use the 3 beat and skip the 2 beat.
ex: 1-3 1-- 1-3 1--
(again, somewhat similar to quick-quick-slow in tango)

3) use the 2 and the 3 beat.
ex: 123 1-- 123 1--
(No good comparison to a tango rhythm)


I use all 3 of these (depending on my mood), but the 1st and 2nd options I use way more than the 3rd one.

As I think and observe:

1) Only dance on 1: most common.
2) 1-3: for me it's also common, I'll have to notice if it's the same for other leaders.
3)123: I use it some times, and I think other leaders do also.
4) 12-: I rarely do it and I rarely notice other leaders doing it.

yes of course its optional. i loved vals when i was a beginner because you had so much more time just stepping on the one, and vals loves ochos, and giros. If its too fast for you; then dance what you can at the milonga.

Thanks very much, everyone, for all your explanations. At least I now understand that we can use any of these possibilities; and that it depends on our interpretation of the dance and the music. I really appreciate it!

 

[opendoor]

A thread on DF on this topic some years ago http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=15799

And opinion on Tango vs Milonga steps: It doesnt depend on the steps. The hold is different. I am allowed to flail about with my arms. The lead is different, upper and downstair floor of my body move a bit separately like in salsa.

And this champ uses tango steps http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqCtf1G2WbE